From Consultant to Paid Community Builder - What You Need to Know First with John Espirian

TRANSCRIPT

Michelle J Raymond: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to the LinkedIn for B2B Growth Show. I'm your host, Michelle J Raymond, and welcoming back to the show, John Espirian. Thanks for coming back a second time.

John Espirian: Absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me back, Michelle. Really glad to be here.

Michelle J Raymond: I'm glad that you're here too, because in the time since we last spoke, a lot has changed for you, my friend.

And I've been watching from afar and you've gone from a predominantly consultant type business into a paid community buildup. And I talk to people around the place and often they come and say, Michelle, when are you doing a community? And I say, look, it's not for me. I think I'd rather rock in a corner, but I wanted to ask you some questions so that people can, understand what do you wish you knew before you'd started?

What have you learned? You've had some time under your belt. So Espresso+, how did you come up with the name for that in the first place?

John Espirian: it Came about through an email list, a free email list I used to run. [00:01:00] Which I called espresso. It's the same first three letters of my surname and the name of this thing.

And I just thought it was going to be short, sharp, digital caffeine shots in your mailbox. That's where that came from. And then that, that just led to loads of lovely conversations with my mailing list. And I wanted those people to have a place to talk to each other, not just to me. And that's where the idea for a group came about and that those are the early knockings of the Espresso Group and what became the Espresso+ Community.

Michelle J Raymond: What triggered you to move away from consulting to building this paid community Espresso+ in the first place? Do you remember, was there a particular tipping point where you went, okay, this thing's got to happen?

It was time to explore it. Do you remember what that was like at the time?

John Espirian: Yeah. So it was late 2021 and I started this free group so that my mailing list people could talk to each other. And I was a copywriter at the time, predominantly, did a bit of LinkedIn consulting, but that group became so busy and so many people joined.

We had about [00:02:00] 650 members and it was just dominating my notifications and taking over my life, frankly, to the point where I couldn't do my day job. And so that went on for four months. And I was at breaking point there and I thought I've either got to turn this into a business or I just need to just kill it now before it goes too far.

And I chose to turn it into a business. That meant giving up the copywriting and that was the birth of the Espresso+ Community. So that was January, 22. So we're almost two years in now.

Michelle J Raymond: That has gone like crazy. I was a member of that first group and I remember thinking to myself, I know you're relentlessly helpful and that is you, that is your brand. I was thinking the amount of effort that was going into that group was crazy. I know you always show up and deliver a ton of value and share so generously. But at the time I was thinking, wow. This thing is just exploding very quickly.

Okay, so you have this idea, things are growing. You turn it into a paid [00:03:00] community. With the wisdom of hindsight, you've got those couple of years under your belt and that experience. Is there something you wish you knew, when you look back before you got started, that you might be able to share with other people?

John Espirian: When I was getting started, the top of mind thing was pricing. Cause I thought I'm giving away all this advice for free. I need to monetize this, but how on earth do I charge for this? I didn't have any of my own yardsticks to compare with. You know, that I'm a data geek. So I couldn't really compare it with anything else because I've never done this before.

And at that time, there weren't that many other comparable memberships that I could look around and say, okay that person's charging this, and maybe I can get away with that. So the big lesson for me is that I probably did under price at the beginning and to compound that I offered a hundred, founder member spots, all of which went in the first day.

And when that happened, I thought, okay, I probably should have charged more for this.[00:04:00] So yeah, with hindsight, I probably would have put more value on the amount of effort that was needed to run this thing and probably charged more and limited the founder member spots to be not to be quite as generous.

Those are the main things that come to mind.

Michelle J Raymond: And did you at the beginning decide this thing will be capped at a certain number? Like, how did you decide who the community was for and how big it should be so that, you could manage that?

John Espirian: Yeah, that's a good question. Cause, a lot of other memberships I see, they're not really capped in any way.

It's just kind of greed is good. Let's have as many members as we can and get them to pay us as much as they can. With me, because it was the espresso vibe is small and strong. And I thought I can't serve thousands of people because I want to do it myself and I'm quite a control freak. I make my own graphics.

I do the spreadsheets. I do the comms just everything you could imagine, I'm doing it myself. That doesn't scale to thousands of people. So I thought my free group [00:05:00] grew to more than 600 people that's not sustainable. And I just thought I'll have it. We'll call it 300. I could manage up to that many people.

And so that was the cap that I put in place. And if the community ever does grow to 300, it'll then become a one in one out system, which will actually be an interesting psychological experiment. If we ever get there, would you sell a space or whatever? But at the moment we've got just over 200 members and that's keeping me quite busy as it is.

Michelle J Raymond: Would you say 300 is still your magic number or have you settled on around 200 or where does that land for you now?

John Espirian: If we can get up to 300, I'd be delighted because that will then meet and exceed all of the financial goals that I had for earning an income indirectly from LinkedIn, let's call it. So 300 is fine.

And one of the great things about community is that you get to know the people. Like I, I want to learn people's cat's names. It's it's not just a business transaction. I get to know these people. They're on the post it notes on the wall [00:06:00] behind me. And they're real people, they're real customers.

And I don't need to be greedy and have thousands of those to sustain me. I don't need that much.

Michelle J Raymond: John with the Espresso+, like I'm going to put in the show notes, the details on how people can come and join that community. Can you give us a short overview on what your community is all about? So the listeners will know.

John Espirian: Yeah, sure. So, I mean, A lot of people would assume that it's just a place to chat and that's certainly, that's where it started. But we also have a private podcast. We have a private video library of, I think it's about 180 videos now of premium content that's just for our members. We have live zoom calls at least twice per month so that people can ask anything. Expert Q& A sessions.

I'll do content reviews as well for members. If someone said, I've just updated my LinkedIn profile. Could you take a look? Then I'll do a video screen share of that. And all of the community benefits from that kind of thing. And then things like discounts and a mailing list and a [00:07:00] members map and a members database.

So there's lots of little bits plugged in together. And the latest innovation is we're going to be having a new version of my website, which will let people have a private members area to log into with some extra goodies as well. So there's plenty that makes up the community. And um, there's a lot of moving parts for me to keep an eye on, to make it happen.

Michelle J Raymond: And in your community, have you found a certain type of person who's joining your community, that's the right fit? Because I would imagine you're fairly protective of your community? Because you wouldn't have it any other way. You put too much effort into everything that you do to have someone rocking the boat.

What kinds of people do you find join a community? Is there any one type? Or have you got a little bit of everything?

John Espirian: Mostly small business owners, because those are the people I was really trying to work with when I was a copywriter towards the end of my copywriting career, If you like. I didn't like working for the big corporates.

I liked working for the small, ambitious, enthusiastic, eager learners. So it's mostly those people. They are people who want organic success so that there's [00:08:00] no one's really coming for the quick fix, the washboard stomach overnight, it doesn't really work like that, does it? So no one's really coming for that.

No one's really coming for lessons on how to place spammy ads or message a thousand people at once. We don't do any of those kind of or engagement pods or any of those things that really cheat the system or try and get you results quicker than you would otherwise have gotten them just You know, by turning up sharing helpful stuff. So hopefully I'm trying to attract people who are at least a little bit like me in terms of their approach to LinkedIn, which is it doesn't happen overnight.

What was the big surprise for me is that a lot of LinkedIn specialists actually are in the community as well. So almost a third of our members actually in some way either train on LinkedIn or are social media support for LinkedIn, that kind of thing.

So they work in the universe of LinkedIn already. And I was never expecting to attract those people. So that's interesting. And it means that we've got a kind of congregation of some of the best minds of LinkedIn. And therefore we'll spot a new feature and share that with each other [00:09:00] and talk about the implications.

So that's a nice little advanced thing that all members benefit from.

Michelle J Raymond: I remember when that happened back at the very beginning and, I reached out to you and I said, look, John, I love you. I absolutely respect everything that you do, but I personally didn't feel comfortable joining the group because I felt like I didn't want to be the person that was maybe felt like I was the shark circling around your community members.

Now that was on me. That was never anything that you said just to be clear and on the record on that. But then I noticed that it was something that there was a lot of people around the world who have, we have so many mutual friends in the LinkedIn, training type community and they gravitated there.

And I think that is just purely and simply a reflection of the kind of person that you are and how generous you are with everything that you do. But it does seem to be the one, where people come because they respect you so much and what you have to offer. And I think that's just absolute kudos to you. So, it's been brilliant to watch that happen and they only do it because [00:10:00] they respect and trust the information that you share with people.

Yeah, absolute kudos to you. Like I said, that's been very cool to watch how you've negotiated that. And I think it's, part of your generosity that operate with a, an abundance mentality, as they would say, that there's enough to go around for everybody having these other people does not take away from you.

 And that is, you know, I'm not going to lie Where I was at two years ago, and I've done a lot of growing in that time as well. I didn't understand it. I was like, Oh, are you sure, John, in my mind and and I'm so happy for you that it's all worked out so good because you deserve every single success.

I have a question for you and you talked about some of the surprising benefits before, but what have been the benefits for you as being a community leader that also surprised you? Have you discovered things about you as a person just as much as your community?

John Espirian: I think leading a community means that you form stronger connections with the people [00:11:00] who are in your tribe, if you like. It also means that I wasn't really expecting this, but it means that you're protected from the vagaries of the LinkedIn algorithm. a Lot of people have been talking about their reach being diminished. But if you have a private space where you know that you're in one to one communication with a large group or a small sub-group, or you're on regular zoom calls with those people, then those people will just be much more likely to see your stuff.

They'll be more likely to want to look out for your stuff. And it's like a buffer. So I think increasingly on social media, we'll see the rise of smaller groups of interested parties who look out for each other's stuff, as opposed to the big wilds of, LinkedIn, which has got, a billion members. It's a big, scary place for a lot of people. Facebook with 3 billion members. You need these smaller communities where you can open up and speak a bit more honestly without fear of being judged.

And one of the things I wasn't expecting to hear is [00:12:00] people inside a walled garden will speak up much more than they would in public. And if someone's struggling in their business or just struggling in general, they might say so in a group of trusted friends where they would absolutely never say so in public.

So you see a different side to people and that's really quite fulfilling. Forget about the financial aspect. You just get to know people better. And that's been wonderful.

Michelle J Raymond: I think you're right about the smaller groups and the bigger the platform gets on LinkedIn, the more overwhelming it can be for people that are new to the platform.

And I think I'm going to dare say, even people that have been on there for long periods of time, I think it's only getting more and more overwhelming. And that's a word that people use when they reach out for help with me. And they're looking for training is that there is information coming to them from every which way, often conflicting, and they are just paralyzed by all of this information coming at them and petrified of doing things wrong or doing something that they [00:13:00] shouldn't.

And it's been quite interesting for me to follow the general way that people come and express why they want training now. I think that's changed in the time that I've had my business over the last few years. Now it's Oh my God, we don't even know where to start. They are overwhelmed is actually a word that gets used a lot.

So as a leader, would you self identify as an introvert or extrovert or depends? Cause I'm just wondering how you find that with your own personality. As a leader, are there things that, there are some days where you're like, you know what, this isn't for me.

And some days where you're like, I love this, based on your personality.

John Espirian: I've worked remotely since 2009, and that really suits me. I like my own space. I live in my own head a lot. So that really works for me. At the same time, I love helping people and the fact that I can do it at scale, which is the real power of social media communities.

It's not just a load of one to one [00:14:00] conversations. You can actually help people at scale is great. I ran my own mini event last week in person, which is quite rare for me. And lovely though it was, you go home and just feel absolutely smashed out. It just, you're exhausted. So yes, I would definitely identify as an introvert, but Working online as I do, and it helps when you know the people pretty well, you just want to give as much of yourself as you can. And I'm able to do that with them with the model I've got.

And just to pick up on what you said about, the newer people are confused about where to start. I'm not surprised because frankly, we've been doing this thing for quite a while, right? And new stuff comes along, but you lose track of how many new things have come along.

And if you were starting from zero now with all these things flying at you, it's really hard. So I think actually it probably takes a village to teach LinkedIn properly. And that's why I'm so grateful for the collegiate atmosphere that we've got. I pick up stuff about company pages and all sorts from you, from your posts, from your podcasts, your lives.

[00:15:00] From Lynnaire, from Gillian Whitney, from Kevin D. Turner. So many good people sharing stuff freely. And the LinkedIn community is lucky to have those people who don't just keep their cards to the chest that they share it out so that we can all learn together, it's great.

Michelle J Raymond: I think LinkedIn does an absolute rubbish job of actually sharing about features that are going on, on the platform. Even just letting people know that they exist, let alone how they can use them, how they fit into strategies.

And I even found myself, back in the beginning when I was just learning how to, be the best trainer that I could be. In the beginning, I thought it was shove as much knowledge as I had about LinkedIn into that training course. And now I spend my whole training course saying, these are the things you need to worry about.

If you're just getting started, let's strip all of this back as much as we possibly can. And then when you get your handle on that, we can talk again about all the other extra bells and whistles that come and go. We've seen many features sunsetted recently. We're seeing the rise of AI on the [00:16:00] platform.

It's crazy to watch how much is just swirling around. It's always going to swirl around, I think. What's the general consensus in your community about the feel for LinkedIn right now? Is it still the sentiments reasonably positive? Or people stuck in, where is this going? I'd love to know your feelings on that.

John Espirian: I think people are feeling a little bit frustrated at the lack of visibility that almost everyone is experiencing and me included. I look at my data quite regularly. My, my view counts have certainly gone down. I think that's just a representation of the fact that more content creators are coming to the platform. So it's just a natural thing over time.

And also maybe a bit, there's a bit of frustration with LinkedIn, just taking away stuff that we actually quite liked. I was a massive proponent of the profile videos, which are going away in December, things like pinned comments and, just things like that.

We like these features and they're being removed. And sometimes it feels as though LinkedIn's spending time working on things that maybe no one really asked for. No one particularly [00:17:00] gets moved by. Instead of the stuff that we do like, and we wish, maybe they'd spend a bit more time beefing up those things that we enjoy using.

And maybe if they spoke to the power users a bit more often, perhaps they'd get that feedback and know what to work on next. But I think, most people are seeing some kind of significant business uplift. From being on Linkedin versus doing something on TikTok or, Facebook or wherever.

So it's still strategically relevant to a lot of my members.

Michelle J Raymond: Yeah, you nailed it on the head. That is exactly what I say to the engineering team when I speak to them. Nobody necessarily wants new features, say for Company Pages. What we want is the existing ones refined. You know, just little things like how to, being able to delete a LinkedIn Company Page comment instead of not being able to edit it.

These kinds of things are annoying, but I guess being part of your community offers people a safe haven for them to come and get answers to those [00:18:00] kinds of questions. Do you find that the questions are fairly similar along the way, or do you find it literally is a little bit of everything?

John Espirian: They're often quite a bit of repetition when someone asks me to review a Linkedin profile, for example. I tend to say the same kind of things, focus on the headline, let's get the about state statement tight, or you haven't got anything in your featured section, let's add a few more skills.

It's very often very similar feedback, but on Q&A calls, then people can go down rabbit holes and go very specific about a particular client's problem they're trying to sort and then you can really dig into the details. And I like that kind of thing. So it's really all sorts.

But I tell you another good thing about having this avenue of feedback and getting questions is you're never stuck for ideas for content because every time someone asked me a question that I haven't already covered, it's that's my next post or that's going to be a video or that'll be a document post or that'll be an article. So it's it's great having that source, cause a lot of people don't seem to know what to write. I don't have enough time to write it all, [00:19:00] cause I keep getting asked questions all the time. So if you can be the hub in that wheel that people come to, then you'll never run out of content ideas.

Michelle J Raymond: Look, I'm with you trying to keep up with what I've got is a never ending kind of, you know, on the hamster wheel, so to speak. But I have been going through Operation Rebrand as you would have listened on the podcast over, the past six months or so. And there was a point where I had to stop and decide what does my model look like going forward?

Assessing whether a community was right for me in my business. It was one of those things that I did. And for me, that's not what I wanted right now. But I am always keen to watch and learn from people like yourself that have been through it. Cause maybe some of my assumptions have been, incorrect.

But what do you think is the secret to success, for anyone considering building a paid community? What are the things that they need to get right?

John Espirian: One thing I learned from being in other memberships that I felt was a mistake that they were making [00:20:00] is that you get attracted in by a big name. A celebrity in quotes, and then that person isn't actually running the show day to day.

And I thought I'm not going to do that. And so what that actually means is that running a community, a paid community is not easy money. You need to be there pretty much every day. You need to be responsive to things. And so clear leadership. So you get the person you're buying, is important. And a clear purpose.

So I set four things that we really talk about. It tends to be, content creation, online visibility, personal branding, LinkedIn best practice. If it's not about any of those things, it's probably not for our community. So we've got a really clear, short agenda, clear leadership, and then just being really responsive and wherever you can, trying to empower people.

So You know, if you get any inkling that someone might possibly one day want to try a video, you give them a little accountability challenge. Get them involved, just moving people on a little bit. So you need to be responsive and present [00:21:00] to make that happen. And hopefully a little bit empathetic.

But yes, that leadership and purpose is the main thing. So in your case, I can imagine a lot of business owners would really identify with your brand already, before you rebranded. The strong brand that you've got and they would probably flock to your membership, but like I said, it would not be easy money.

It's the hardest I've ever worked. But it is very fulfilling kind of work too.

Michelle J Raymond: In my mind, it requires being really super organised and a good planner and keeping up with the admin side of things, responding to questions and helping people. I'm there with you in spades, like absolutely. You and I are two peas in a pod when it comes to that.

But the other side of it, I'd probably get so obsessed with the tech side of it, but the actual day to day planning, that's where my brain goes. Oh no, that's not my strength. Now, is that saying that in the future, I might change my mind? Maybe, who knows? I've done things in the last three years that I [00:22:00] never imagined in a million years that I would do.

So never say never, but I think for me, I wanted to work one on one with. B2B businesses and have that direct impact and work on a bigger scale and maybe a little bit deeper uh, to be able to work on like strategies and training and profiles and, really get a business humming along when it comes to LinkedIn in that one on one space.

I'm with you. There's a limit if I don't want anybody else working in the business besides Lil and I, there is a finite number of hours in a week. I don't want to burn myself out or her. And so this is the, part where I guess as business owners, we need to work out when is that fork in the road is what we're doing working.

And I think that review is the important piece and that's exactly what I've been doing in Operation Rebrand. Is what I'm doing right for me is what I'm doing right for the business and growth in the future. And right now I think I've got everything nailed and I'm pretty happy with it all, but you're right, like it's one of those things that, time changes, your audience [00:23:00] changes.

Your needs change. And yeah, maybe one day I'll get over my fear of admin and planning.

John Espirian: Yeah. It's something for you to revisit in maybe 12 months time. If you were ever going to do this seriously, think about what big thing would you have to stop doing? Because I gave up a 13 year copywriting career to do this because I had no choice.

There was just not enough time. That's a pretty major change in life and quite a big gamble, actually. If it had gone wrong, then I'd have to go back tail between legs. So you need to think along those lines. What are you going to drop? And if there's nothing you want to drop, cause everything else is going well and you're enjoying it. You don't need to make change just for change's sake.

Michelle J Raymond: Yeah. I think that's a very important point right there. Changing things just because John, you have a paid community or maybe cause Lea Turner or Richard van der Blom have theirs. It doesn't mean it's right for me. And I think this is the purpose of the podcast is to get people to start thinking, am I doing this because it is actually the right strategic fit? Or am I doing it cause I don't want to miss out because [00:24:00] other people are doing it? And I think that's a really key point.

Now, one of the things as having a fabulous community that you have and all the work you've put into it, you're now moving, which I, I never thought I'd see this from you, John, especially not quite so soon. It feels soon for me, but I'm also not surprised in another way, but community events, you have Uplift Live coming in 2024.

Tell us a bit about that. And for the listeners that are in listening today, I'm gonna make sure that we also put in the show notes, how they can buy tickets to this event. I am so bummed that I can't make it, cause I'll be on the other side of the world, even more so than usual. But yeah, what is Uplift Live and why should people buy a ticket?

John Espirian: Yeah. Uplift Live is a LinkedIn focused conference. The first of its type in the UK and was born because I'd been to too many conferences where LinkedIn didn't get mentioned at all or got mentioned in a very superficial way.

And I know that LinkedIn don't [00:25:00] really run their own conferences. They certainly don't in the UK. And I thought I could sit here waiting forever for something to happen, or I could just get up and do it myself. So got together with a couple of my colleagues in Espresso+ and we said, look, we know lots of good speakers. Let's get them all together in the UK.

 And you would have been one of them if you weren't already speaking at Social Media Marketing World. And you would even have had a pink post it note. That's what the post it notes above my head are all of the speakers at the event. But yes, so we're getting together some of the very, very best what I call the Apex operators of LinkedIn. The Richard van der Bloms, the Kevin D, Turners, the Gillian Whitney's. They're all coming to the U.K.

And we're going to have a whole day of learning and networking and fun. And we've got pre event stuff and post event stuff as well. Yes, if you want to learn LinkedIn Best Practice from people who don't want to cheat. Who, who want to do things the right way, who will give you honest advice. It's not sexy advice, but it is, we'll give you just straight, honest advice. That's what we're doing in Birmingham and it's the [00:26:00] 21st of March, 2024. So about four months away as we record this I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah, it's long overdue in the UK, so I'm really glad to be a part of it.

Michelle J Raymond: I know it sounds possibly silly to listeners that no one talks about LinkedIn in such great terms at some of these events, but I even know at Social Media Marketing World, LinkedIn is such a small portion of the overall, broad spectrum of social media tools and apps and what's going on and what they're talking about.

And it's still an unknown. This is the crazy thing. It's been around for 20 years. But I still get the feeling that people don't know what to do with it to maximise the results of the time that they spend on there. And that's my favourite thing. This is where, again, you and I are so aligned is that helping other people discover how to leverage that, to grow their businesses is just amazing.

It's the best job in the world as far as I'm concerned. And even though we go around it different, we both have that same goal. It lights us up to help other people to get more out of it. Is it Gus and Jeremy are [00:27:00] your two helpers? You want to give them a shout out? Cause I know they have been doing a pretty amazing job in the backgrounds bringing this thing to life.

Does it take a village to get an event out there?

John Espirian: I certainly couldn't do it on my own and those two guys. So it's Jeremy Freeman, a content writer and Gus Bandel, a social media guru. They've both got events experience. So I'm leaning on them for some of the logistics. Booking hotels and venues and getting a ticket page ready and just all of that admin stuff. It's not really for me, but it needs to be done to make this kind of thing happen.

So yeah, again, it's going to be a lot of effort, but for me, it's a legacy thing to say that we've done the first ever, LinkedIn focused conference in the country. That'll be a feather in my cap and hopefully we'll make a little bit of money along the way. And we did say if it's a, if it's a financial success in the UK. Potentially it could be exported to somewhere like the US and could then really become a big thing, but let's walk before we can run.

Michelle J Raymond: Absolutely. And with some better planning, I'll make sure that I earn one of those pink post it notes, but I can say that [00:28:00] every one of those names that you mentioned, I absolutely endorse that this is a quality event that you are putting on.

So if anyone is local, are there online tickets as well, or is it just all face to face event?

John Espirian: Yes. We're not selling those till January, but we will have tickets for the captioned and transcribed recordings. We've decided not to do a live stream because every event I've been to has had tech glitches.

And I know that would give me a heart attack if we had that. We're just going to really polish it up nicely and give people a nice recorded experience. But until January, we're selling only in person tickets. And we really want to see people come if they can, because I think just being in the room with lots of other enthusiasts is going to send people away really energised and hopefully making some really good friendships as well.

Michelle J Raymond: I have no doubt and yeah, like I said, maybe the next time when you do this one, we will coordinate schedules and I will make sure that I am there with you guys.

John, every podcast, as you know, cause you're a listener and I appreciate you, but every podcast I asked my guests, [00:29:00] one last actionable tip. Could you give one to those who might be considering starting their own paid community?

What's the best tip that you could give them up front?

John Espirian: I would experiment with a free LinkedIn group to start. Test the water and see if you can get interest in a free version of your community then a proportion of people might turn into paid customers. I wouldn't leap straight into trying to charge people.

I took five years to build my personal brand runway before takeoff of a paid community. So this is not quick. And also, About one in six people who were in my free community stayed on as paid members. So don't expect to convert everyone. I don't know whether that's a good stat or a bad stat, but test it through a free model, and then you can see whether you can monetize after that.

Michelle J Raymond: I could imagine it could become very expensive and a lot of work up front for, possibly no return if you don't do that research. And you are the king of research and numbers and stats. So I'm going to go with your numbers cause I have [00:30:00] nothing else to refer to. So John, I appreciate everything that you've shared so candidly today.

Oh, I know that the Espresso+ group is one of the groups that I absolutely recommend to my listeners. If you are looking for a community setting with a bunch of trusted people that are led by John there is no better group that you can go and learn about LinkedIn in that setting. Thank you, John, for coming back onto the show second time around. I appreciate you. One last plug for Uplift Live. When is it? And where can people get tickets?

John Espirian: Yeah. So Uplift live will be in Birmingham. Our second city in the UK, and it will be on 21st of March, 2024. And if you go to uplift-live.com, you can buy yourself an in person ticket and eventually an online ticket too.

Michelle J Raymond: Excellent. So on that note, listeners, I hope that this has given you as much value as it has me. Thank you so much, John. Thank you to all the listeners and until next week, cheers.