Amplify Your Impact: Kerry Dobson on Crafting Elite Coaching Programs

TRANSCRIPT

Scaling Business Through Impactful Coaching Program - Kerry Dobson

Michelle J Raymond: [00:00:00] And welcome everybody to the LinkedIn for B2B Growth Show. I'm your host, Michelle J Raymond, and this week I'm joined by the wonderful Kerry Dobson. Welcome to the show.

Kerry Dobson: Thank you so much for having me, Michelle. I'm so excited to be here.

Michelle J Raymond: And we're talking about scaling business impact through groups, which is something that you are just wonderful at.

But I wanna ask you, before we jump into all of your knowledge around that, how did you get started on LinkedIn? What's your journey been like?

Kerry Dobson: So my LinkedIn journey was, I ended up with a COVID layoff. I was an accidental entrepreneur and I found out, okay, where am I gonna show up? And LinkedIn was really my only choice cause I still to this day never had a Facebook account, so that was out. Facebook at that point was Instagram out.

So it landed me on LinkedIn. And what I loved about LinkedIn was when I originally used it, it was a resume place. Stuffy. And then once I got into it this time around, it was like, oh, people are nice and people are helpful. [00:01:00] What's this all about?

So it took me a while. I definitely have to give credit to Michelle Griffin and her community because without her community, I think I would still just be scrolling and maybe occasionally liking and commenting.

Michelle J Raymond: That 365 community is amazing, and I will put the details in the show notes so that other people can join it because I think it's about 1400 members strong now, what she's built. And it's just been incredible to watch as a space for people to learn LinkedIn and then launch from there.

And so today we're gonna be talking about groups. Now, I told you before the show that I have people on the show that I, realistically, they're experts that I wanna ask questions of. So I'm just letting everybody else listen in to your answers.

Because here's the thing, I'm gonna set this up for you. When I think about group coaching programs, it makes me wanna rock in a corner. My mind just goes to, it sounds good in theory, but I'm not that organised and I feel like it just would [00:02:00] overwhelm me and I just run the other way.

So I'm hoping I'm gonna learn some things today from you that might actually change my mindset around that, because I can see that there's an impact that you could have conversations with more people at once rather than one-on-ones.

So we are gonna jump into this. When's the right time to start considering a group coaching program? What things do I need in place before I even think about having one?

Kerry Dobson: Yeah, so this is, honestly, I joke that a lot of times my first role in your life is to tell you no, because what happens is I feel like there's this flippant idea out there that it's oh, you're a coach or you are an author. You just need to have a group program. And it's just sad.

And the reality is if you are struggling to get one-on-one clients, it's gonna be worse to try to get groups, cause now you have the numbers that you have to get. So you have to do the basic community building. So you need, an email list, you need an engaged community, [00:03:00] you need to have worked with enough people that you know, what are the tools, resources, and experiences that always lead to success for people.

So you have to be, have been around enough to say, okay, I've got these resources, I've got this framework, I've got this point of view, and I'm confident that they work on a regular basis. And that's when you wanna start thinking about how do I scale this with groups?

Michelle J Raymond: So it's not an experiment place, is that what you're telling me?

Kerry Dobson: So it can be. I joke I'm not the gatekeeper of groups. If I could, maybe I would, but, you can try it. It's just, the reality is that you're probably not gonna get a lot of people in your group. You're gonna put a lot of effort in for very little impact, and you're not gonna be able to make it repeatable.

I always say, in order to have a group, you need at least three people, right? It's not a group without three people. It needs to have an end date and a start date. You need to have something or some things that they will accomplish in it. So if you don't have the community or you don't have [00:04:00] enough people saying yes to you, You're not gonna be able to do it in a way that doesn't actually hurt your brand.

Cause the worst thing you can do is try to do a group program. It doesn't go well. You only have a couple people in it and then now suddenly that's the impression that your group program has out in the world.

Michelle J Raymond: I tried once upon a time to do just a one-off group training. Just in my mind it would be so amazing I could get 10 people turn up and they'd all just turn up cause it was cheap and it was me, you know? And I left it to the last minute. Let's be clear. I gave it no time to promote it. I had no list.

I knew the product was fine, but I put so much into it and then I think there was like three or four people maybe that turned up for the training. In my mind, it was gonna be 10 or more. They'd all be knocking down my door.

Not quite how it works. I think there's like a bit of a runway that we need to make sure that we're putting this out for other people. So I really came unstuck with that and that was a lesson for me too. If I'm gonna do something like you just [00:05:00] said, do it properly. And I really didn't. And I don't think genuinely I even wanted to do it.

I think I just thought I should have done it as a coach. Ooh, let's do group training. It seemed like this next evolution and the fact is I love one-on-one . I just crashed and burns.

Kerry Dobson: Yeah. And that's common. That's the reality. First of all, I think there's a lot of people out there talking about the maths behind group programs, right?

You make it affordable for those that show up, but you make tons of money. But it doesn't actually talk about what's the work I have to put in to create this? Both from like, how do I craft this? How do I market this? And then how do I lead this so that it does have that positive impact on them? And Yes, you can make the numbers work, but it only works if you have a big enough community that it becomes repeatable because all that work you're gonna put on at the front end then pays off every time you do it.

Michelle J Raymond: That I get, and I've just recently joined my first group program as a participant, and so I can see [00:06:00] how it can work with the benefits, but what should and shouldn't be included in a group program. Is there like people that jam too much in not enough, what are we trying to do with this group? Is it, short, quick wins or is it longer term impact or just depends on what the goals are?

Kerry Dobson: So the answer is, it depends, right? Because what you wanna start with is what is the outcome that you are promising or saying that they will get out of it, and it's your outcome that will dictate everything else.

So I always say you get to decide resources or expectations, but not both. So you can say, I only want a six week program or a six month program.

That means the expectations you have of what people can accomplish, you can't change, right? You have a certain amount of time or you can say, no, I want them to have this experience. I want them to accomplish this. And so therefore, how long it is, how many times we meet, all of that kind of stuff. You have to be willing to negotiate on it.

When it comes to [00:07:00] what should or shouldn't, I always say, Only do in the group what only the group can do. So, So many times people approach group programs as, well I'm just gonna talk at you and then I'm gonna give you 15 minutes to ask questions, right?

Listen, that to me is office hours and there's a place for it. But a group program, actually the entity that you're looking at or the container that you're looking at, is the group, and it's about how do you facilitate that group so that they're supporting each other, they're helping each other, and they're still making progress towards that outcome that you've promised them.

Michelle J Raymond: So there's a community feel to the group rather than just, I get to talk at everybody. Is that what you're telling me?

Kerry Dobson: That's what I'm telling you. So there's times where you might be talking at, you're sharing your wisdom, but the majority of the time you want them doing things. You want them experimenting, reflecting, having conversations, trying things out, and so I've yet [00:08:00] to find somebody who didn't put enough in a group program.

It's always the other way, and it comes from a really good place because you wanna help. You have so much wisdom, you have so much experience, and you're like, here have it all. But what other people experience is the fire hose and then they can't handle it. They don't make the progress. And now they're not kind of like, well, what's next?

They're still trying to figure out, what, what happened? And for me, the success of a group program is when your clients at the end are asking you, what is next? I'm so into this, I wanna go to the next level with you. And they're turning around and they're selling it for you because it was so impactful.

And they're saying, this person needs to be in it. This person needs to be in it. And that's where, to me, the value of group programs really comes because if you do it well, it will sell at least 50% of it every time, by itself, by the clients that you had in the past one.

Michelle J Raymond: That's amazing. I was a bit hesitant when I signed up for Irit's [00:09:00] course and just because I'd never done a group program before and I wasn't sure what to expect, and this is to solve one piece of building my business in the background.

It's not how I earn my money, and it was one of those things that I thought. Okay, should I or shouldn't I do this? And what I've discovered is I've been going down rabbit holes trying to learn everything for myself, and this was an opportunity where I could actually get outcomes in eight weeks, which seems like a reasonable period of time.

In my mind, at first I was thinking, I think that's too long. I don't think I can wait that long. In reality now I realise that's actually how long everything takes for me to implement it on the other side when I'm learning. And I think I've grossly underestimated how long it takes to learn new things.

And my favourite part has been the group. All of us with unique perspectives, giving feedback to each other, and I've just learnt so much and it's had impacts on other areas of the business, [00:10:00] which weren't part of what we were setting out to do, which has been even more amazing.

So I told you Kerry that when it comes to organisation and planning, I'm not gonna lie, it's not my strong point. Dates and times are not how my brain works. I've got people that help me with that kind of stuff.

But what's a realistic timeframe to put this thing together? I go out, I get my online course platform and it all looks so easy. Just upload the videos, do it, out you go, send it to the mailing list. Ta-da. But let's get real here. What does it look like in the launch phase of a new program?

Kerry Dobson: Yeah. And I think the course is a great place to start because there, it's all about knowledge, right? You're not providing that opportunity for what I've heard called care, right? Where it's let's hold space. You can ask questions, I'm gonna give you a little bit more information. You're gonna try stuff out, you're gonna work with other people. And so it's that care part that is the distinguishing factor between kind of a course or a group program.

And so [00:11:00] the reality is there's not a lot that you have to kind of plan out in terms of oh, there's so much you have to do. The people that I work with, typically, they already have all the content in some way, shape or form. They pay me to tell them no. So there's like less of it. And then it's about how do you literally hold space and create space for people to practice this?

So it's things like, this is a great piece of knowledge, but what do they do with it? What's the experience around it? So the answer to how long it takes, often depends again, on the length of your program and how much of those experiences you already have the resources for versus how much you have to make up or create yourself.

But I would say at least minimum three months before. So start thinking about it before you launch it. The other thing to remember is the marketing part of it, right? That's gonna take a while too. If you have a community, it's a little bit easier, but it still takes a while for people to say, [00:12:00] yes, I'm in.

Especially the first time you do it. And that's where, doing beta testing and like having that first group, at like a great price, requiring them to give you feedback might help you get a few more yeses.

Michelle J Raymond: If you were to do your first group program, say, I have a friend called Michelle who was thinking about doing a group program maybe sometime in the future, and Michelle thought, what's an ideal length for that first course is it you don't wanna bite off too much. Is it, give yourself more time. Which way do you look at it?

Kerry Dobson: Yeah, so I would say the most important part is what is the minimum amount of experiences your clients need to have in order to feel some level of success that makes them feel like, I've got this. That's the minimum amount of time that you want for a program.

And what I would say is, unless you're doing something that is I think about some of these resilience programs or somatic programs that really take a long time for that integration to take place. So you're looking kind of six months [00:13:00] to a year there. Everything else I would say goes shorter to create that momentum of success and then have the next phase ready.

Michelle J Raymond: Gotcha. Yeah, because I am just thinking about the course that I'm doing and what I've loved is I can actually see it building week after week, and I'm getting more confident week after week to the point where I'm willing to go and try some things in the background that we haven't even been taught yet.

But I'm just excited by it and I love that feeling and it's not something that I expected to get out of doing the course. I'm not gonna lie, there was a small piece of me that went, oh, it's a cheaper way to do this. And I was concerned cause I don't particularly enjoy learning in group settings, but it has been brilliant.

For me it's just been a positive. I can see how it could come easily unraveled in if I landed in the wrong spot with the wrong group leader.

Kerry Dobson: Absolutely.

Michelle J Raymond: It would either be too much or too little I think.

Kerry Dobson: Yeah, and the reality is you know, one of the things that [00:14:00] I am working towards is helping us to raise the standards of what a group program is because whether it's through kind of our traditional education program where we have an expert talking at us, telling us if we've succeeded or not.

Or a lot of the group programs where we still have that talking head that is just giving you lots of wisdom but not really helping you to do it. I think we have such low standards for so many of our group programs, and I think that's part of the problem is we as consumers have experienced those not so great ones, so therefore we're hesitant to do it, but we're also how do I do it so that they don't experience that because we don't want our clients to have that experience.

Michelle J Raymond: Oh, definitely not. So I have a question for you, just based on some research that I've been doing around LinkedIn specifically, and that is that we all learn differently. So I particularly love to read, there is a prolific amount of video content that teaches you how to do stuff and there are people that want to be [00:15:00] hands on and all kinds of things.

How do you manage that in a group setting? Because one thing that I struggle with, you know, You jump onto Google how to do this, send you to YouTube. YouTube makes you watch videos and they give you how to do it. But in my brain, I wanna read it step by step. How do you accommodate people that learn differently in groups?

Kerry Dobson: Yeah. So one of the things that you wanna think about is what is a way that I can provide this to people in different kind of formats. The reality is that even if we think, okay, I prefer to read or I prefer videos, we all actually learn by doing. The knowledge is not what the thing is.

It's all about what we would call application. It's those experiences. So whether you are offering some of that content kind of by video or by transcript, you can make that really accessible to people. But the reality is even most of the people that have paid to be in your group program are not even gonna consume that much of the additional content that you provide them.

So it's really about [00:16:00] knowing what is super important so you make sure that's communicated when the group is together, and then doing what only the group can do, which is providing that experience, giving that feedback, giving that support.

Michelle J Raymond: I can imagine having those clear guardrails of what is and isn't included in the group would keep you on track because I would imagine as myself, I love helping people and I can see how very quickly if I was leading a group, someone would ask me a question and I'd be like, Oh, I'd love to help you with that.

And off we go. And then all of a sudden other people are overwhelmed or I'm overwhelmed trying to keep up, or we go over time or I'm not delivering what I said. So I can see how that's really important.

But what are some of the common mistakes that you actually see with new group leaders? What can we avoid as a leader of a group to really set the group up for success.

Kerry Dobson: So the first one is too soon, right? We jump into group programs way before we are ready, way before our community is big enough to handle it, and then it kind of just is [wah wah sound] right? It doesn't have that [00:17:00] momentum.

The second one is too much, right? We want everything to happen. We want them to have all the information, and it's really about pairing it down to those experiences that they need to have in order to reach the outcome.

So those are the two biggest and hardest ones to avoid, to be honest, because so much of what we're hearing out there is you need a group. You need a group. So we think we do it right okay, I'm gonna do it. And then the too much is just to your point, right?

Like you wanna help everybody, and this is the difference between working one-on-one and groups. When you're one-on-one, you can pivot, they ask you a question, you can answer it, it's fine. But one of the things that's the hardest transition for people is when you're the leader of your group, your responsibility is to the group as a whole.

So there's ways to handle it where you can say, okay, can we talk about that offline? Or, let's do that as a special session or whatever. One of the things I think is super helpful is to do what I would call hybrid, where you have someone [00:18:00] one-on-one time with everybody within the program so that if someone has a question that's totally off topic, but you really wanna give the information, you can say, let's make sure we talk about that in the one-on-one time.

The other thing that the one-on-one time allows you to do is make sure that people are progressing together so no one's getting too far behind, that they're intimidated about taking part in the rest of the group.

Michelle J Raymond: Would you encourage people to run like a beta group first up before they roll it out further? Is that something that you would encourage?

Kerry Dobson: Yeah, I think here's the thing, if you have so much experience with your resources and tools that you know that they work, beta's a little less important.

But if you are putting it together for the first time and you think it's gonna work, people are just more forgiving in a beta. The other thing is those are your raving fans for the program. So they get to influence where it's going, right? So it's also a great place for you to experiment a little, right?

So for example, if we're working together and I'm like, [00:19:00] no, you really wanna do this as a group, and you're like, no, I don't. It's like, let's do it in the beta, see how it goes. And most times it's gonna go way better than you think it is because you've created the container where people are ready to experiment and try different things.

Michelle J Raymond: We're gonna jump into your framework in a moment cause I think it's brilliant. Your ease framework. But before we do that, if I'm setting up a group coaching program, what kind of things are you looking for as a measurement of its success? How do I know I've done a good job?

Is it because they're referring other people? Or is there something tangible that we're asking or looking for so that we can say, yeah, well done, job well done. Let's roll it out again.

Kerry Dobson: Yeah. So the first part before I would ever say, let's put a group program together, is identifying the program outcome.

So what is the promise that you're giving them? And then we build everything around that outcome, right? So you pretty much guarantee the results because you've set [00:20:00] everything up for it. But for example, for you, you might say, okay, the outcome is you have a company page that has, if you want followers, like whatever those dynamics are.

But you would say that's the outcome. So at the end of it, everybody has a like a company page, and you've created a group show and tell where everybody's demonstrating and showing their company page to everybody. Everybody's giving feedback on it. So everybody's getting really good at knowing what works, what doesn't work, and all that type of stuff.

So your program outcome is the result. It's the icing on the cake that everybody's then referring people to it because you have accomplished what you promised that they would get.

Michelle J Raymond: Makes sense. So start at the end. Reverse engineer. I can make sense of that. That works. But you've got a framework that is the EASE framework.

So I'm just gonna read out, EASE is engaging, actionable, supportive, and effortless.

Kerry Dobson: Yes.

Michelle J Raymond: Sounds like the dream. Tell me about it. This is amazing.

Kerry Dobson: Yeah, so the EASE [00:21:00] framework is what we use to help you put together the group program, but I love it because it's also a great checklist for if you should join a group program,

So it works both ways. So the first one is about engaging, right? So it's how are you bringing people into the room? How is it not just a talking head? And there's lots of ways that you can do it. Simple things from like annotation, if it's an online program where they're actually putting stuff on the whiteboard or polls, right? So there's lots of ways to bring them in, but it's, they're actually participating with you. Okay.

Actionable, again, is related to the program outcome. So they're taking action, they're making progress. That's a key part of it.

Supportive is that container, the community that you've created. And one of the things that I love about supportive is we think as the leader, it's all on us, right? Oh, I've gotta make sure everybody's okay. But the truth is that community and group members will support each other if you set up that expectation and you give them that opportunity to connect [00:22:00] and work with each other.

And then the last one is effortless. What I say about this is it's hard enough to do the things right. I'm hiring you. I'm coming into this group program cause I couldn't do it by myself. So make sure that all of that effort is towards making those changes and getting that program outcome and not about trying to maneuver through your program, or where do I go for the information? Where do I show up? What time? So you wanna make it as effortless as possible so all that effort can really go towards the outcome.

Michelle J Raymond: I actually found, I didn't do much research and as I said, it was my first group that I've ever joined. And I think I'd like to do a few more just to see what works, what I like, what I don't like.

I think that would be a great way to become a better group leader. If I've never been a participant, I think to get on the other side might be a good point, but what I've loved is we have a session that is, here's a video, this is what we're gonna be talking about this week.

Then we actually have a series where we get to learn about the [00:23:00] particular thing, and then we have a couple of days and then we come back for a Q&A.

Now, in the original setup, some of those things were flipped around and so it was actually the group feedback that now we've been able to say, actually we'd like to learn first. Q&A afterwards, not the other way around. It just makes our brains work better. And it's just been brilliant that the whole group was like, we can make this group program better and vice versa.

We've got more out of it. So it's been really eye-opening for me to be a part of this. It's been great that I can actually see them getting to that point that was promised. I can see it building bit by bit week by week. Because I think, if I'm being honest, I would just throw too much at people cause I would want them to learn too fast.

And this is why I'm talking about this framework with you because I wanna deliver it quickly and I don't think that quickly is the best outcome for people.

Kerry Dobson: We need time to practice, right? We can't go from knowing the right thing and then having integrated it, right? We need that time.

We [00:24:00] need that feedback. We need that support to do it. So it's one of those things you have to slow down to speed up, a lot of times.

Michelle J Raymond: It's such a good saying, like I use that all the time. It's probably should be a life lesson for me. I should have a t-shirt with it on. Slow down, Michelle, because I grossly underestimate how long it takes to implement things.

I have it in my mind that somehow if I have an idea from idea to concept, I'll give myself like two weeks. You are saying three months. I'm saying two weeks in my brain. It'll be easy Kerry, I've already got all of this content. It'll be fine. I talk about it all the time. So not. Like life happens, business happens, training happens. Oh yeah. It's just unrealistic expectations on my behalf.

Is there anything else that I haven't asked you about groups which you think is a really important consideration for anyone that might be listening? The promised land of let's scale our impact. I'm totally on board for that, but what else should I factor into this?

Kerry Dobson: Yeah. Your [00:25:00] last show with Mark, I think is an important part about the community because to me, group programs are part of that community. It's either the on-ramp or the off-ramp or the, in the middle ramp of your community. So for me, the thing to remember is that point that I made where only do in the group what only the group can do.

And so it really is about putting together, what is the strategy that I have so that people in this group can support each other, can practice with each other, can give each other feedback, and how do I facilitate and lead those sessions? So taking off that hat of I need to teach you so much, but instead I need to create the space, the group and the community to allow this learning to take place.

Michelle J Raymond: I didn't realise as part of the course that I'm doing, I'm gonna keep referring back to this cause I don't have any other examples to talk about. But what I found that I'm enjoying just as much is that we've got a Slack community where we can talk about our homework or talk about just, [00:26:00] whatever in general.

And it's been really good because I've got to see other people's homework, they get to see mine. I've been able to give feedback and then vice versa. And as I said, some of the outcomes are so not even related to what we're talking about. It's been turned into this like cheer fest of putting prices up because all of a sudden we've realized by mapping out our processes, which is part of what we were doing, Oh my God, is this what we actually do?

So it's been really nice to take an hour out at a time to actually stop, look and progress through that at a pace that actually works. And the Slack channel has been great. Do you have things like that you would recommend as part of your group coaching programs to have? Whether it's Slack or any other platform, but you encourage that as well.

Kerry Dobson: Yeah. So I look at it two ways. One is the program itself. What are you doing to create kind of community and a sense of group before the program even starts, right? During and then after, because you wanna keep that relationship going. You wanna keep the support going. And so when I look at that, [00:27:00] what I think about is, What is the least friction that I can give someone to be involved in this group outside of the times that we're together?

So I always think about where are you already, right? So if the majority of your group is on Slack, already, get into Slack, if it's Discord, if it's mining networks, if it's LinkedIn, wherever they already are, try to create that there.

The other part is that it's the connections that you make when you're together that then gets cemented in that offline community and in that kind of wherever you're going to hold it. But if you're not doing the community and group building when you're together, that offline stuff just isn't gonna work, and it's definitely not gonna last once your program ends.

Michelle J Raymond: Totally makes sense. I can see how all of this is coming together just in my own experience, and it's something in my mind. I'm planning for the future. I think you've planted a seed. I think with the right coaching and I will definitely, when I'm ready, you know where I'm coming. I'm coming straight to you.

 And I'm gonna encourage anybody that's listening, if you're not [00:28:00] connected to Kerry Dobson yet, I'm gonna put her details in the show notes.

I want you to go to her LinkedIn profile. Top right hand corner underneath the banner is a bell. Go and click on that so you can learn everything she knows about groups because it is just brilliant and it's not something that I ever considered until we crossed paths and it was probably 365 community thanks to Michelle again.

She's always helping. I couldn't do my business without her as it turns out. But I just wanted to give you one last shot. I love to end the show with an actionable tip that we can give people. Say, I've listened to this, I'm inspired. Maybe I've had that little niggle that I really want to do a group program to scale my impact, to grow my business.

What's the first actionable tip that you would give people? Where do we start?

Kerry Dobson: So there's the first thing that I would say is, let's have a conversation. I know that's the worst call to action, but the reality is that it's like everybody's in a different place, and what I can promise you is the conversation that we have, I'll either [00:29:00] direct you to Hey, you need to build your community in this way, or your email list before you do this.

Or we might be able to talk about what it is you do. I do also have the questions to ask at each milestone in your group program. If you go to my profile and go to the link tree if you take a look at those questions, it'll start you thinking about, oh, there's a lot more to this than I thought there was.

But if you can answer a lot of those questions already, it means that you're probably at a place where a group program might be the thing that you wanna do.

Michelle J Raymond: I will absolutely make sure that people have access to both of those things in your bio, in the show notes so that they can reach out. Because like I said, I have realised that for my business to grow, I'm gonna do it by leveraging experts like yourself and your knowledge.

So I appreciate everything that you have shared here today. You have definitely changed my mind. It's planted a seed. It's not gonna, grow right now, but it's certainly something that I'd taken off the table because to me it felt so overwhelming and the workload felt too big and [00:30:00] I was like, I love training.

I love teaching people, I love community, I love groups, but the admin side of it just has me freaked out. So I appreciate you actually letting me know that people like yourself can actually help me with that. And it doesn't have to be like that. So thank you for coming on the show and I just appreciate everything that you've shared.

Kerry Dobson: Thank you, Michelle. It's been awesome. And the reality is that part of the reason you feel that overwhelm is because we don't talk enough about what it actually takes. We're so flippant about it. So your experience is really normal, and once you set it up, it becomes repeatable, and that's where the ease comes for you.

Michelle J Raymond: That sounds much better. And I appreciate you for making me feel like it's not just me that's thinking this, because it just feels when you're on LinkedIn, everybody can do everything by magic. And I know the people when I speak to them have the same feeling and I think it's important to get back to that not everyone's in the same place that we are.

And we might have the keys to unlock that potential. And [00:31:00] so I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on the show and to all the listeners, we will catch you next episode. Cheers.