Why Your B2B Marketing Isn’t Building Buyer Trust (Insights from The B2B Institute)

G'day everyone, it's Michelle J Raymond here, and listeners, this

week we're gonna be nerding out on some B2B marketing research.

And I know that many of my listeners, because you're smart, you are probably

going to be sitting there throughout this episode with the wonderful Vita

Molis from the B2B Institute going, "Yes, finally we're talking about

something other than trends on LinkedIn."

Vita, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Now tell me, you shared just before that you're a classically trained researcher.

What does that mean for people like me?

Uh, well, it means that I am obsessed with understanding the numbers.

I love a good hypothesis, and I love to prove it right, uh, just as

much as I love to prove it wrong.

Everything that we'll chat about is really based in the science of

business, the math um, of it all, if you will, and what's actually going on.

So I'm super excited to dig in.

Look, I always love talking to people from the B2B Institute, so we had

Ty Heath has been on the show, and it really is one of those things.

So I don't have a marketing background, but I love to read and learn.

And so every time the B2B Institute's putting out new research on the

website, I am just absorbing that like a sponge, and I am so grateful to you

coming on the show today so that we can talk about it, because I'm gonna

put all the details in the show notes where people can come and do some of

that research themselves, because I'm a reader, and I just love digging into

things and really understanding it.

But I came across your profile on LinkedIn not that long ago i- in the scheme

of the world, and you had some really interesting new topics that you were

talking about at an event just recently.

And so I am so excited to be asking you questions about this one.

So let's just start with the easy one, shall we call it?

I don't know that it's easy, but let's just start at the beginning.

But … one of the posts that I read from you basically said that B2B

brands, you don't have a reach problem, you've got a credibility gap, and I

was like, "Whoa, okay. You're calling it out straight away." How did we get

here, and where's the credibility?

Where's it gone, and why is it actually a challenge for marketers?

Yeah.

And- and that actually, you know, from the institute, we've spent a

lot of time talking about reach, so it was really a hot take, uh, there.

I mean, what we're seeing from a data perspective, we're seeing

that the B2B buying is getting more and more complicated.

So there's more people around the table, so 10 on average, 10

stakeholders that sit around a table to make a decision about B2B buying.

In some categories it's up to 22.

So that number I can… You might not have a conference room big enough

to fit the entire buying committee.

But also the journeys are getting longer.

272 days, so nine months is our research- recent research with Dreamdata, uh,

which is really surprising And the one that, the stat that really, um, had me

flying off my chair, if you will, was that 40% of deals actually just stall.

They never close.

They don't go to a competitor.

They go nowhere.

And so that really started the journey of understanding why.

Why is that happening?

What's going on?

Uh, and what we found is that ultimately it's about trust.

It's about everyone around that table being able to feel confident, uh,

in making a decision, and most B2B marketers are saying that trust is the

ultimate driver of decision-making.

That was researched last year with Ipsos.

I think it was, like, 94%.

And this year we were interested in unpacking how do we move that trust?

What's been really interesting for me is I spent my career

in B2B sales, so 20-odd years.

So before B2B was cool, I was operating mostly in, like, manufacturing companies

and the industrial side of B2B.

And so it's been really interesting for me to watch this new research come

out that realistically had aligned with what I'd been seeing my entire career

as time went on, where we went from long lunches, one-on-one with people back

in the good old days, as I call them.

Fast-forward to I stopped those kind of roles about six or seven years

ago, but what would happen is my customers would basically drop me

an email and say, "Michelle, I wanna know about the pricing, the logistics.

When can I pick this stuff up?" And they'd already all done their research.

They knew exactly what they wanted, and it was my job as the account manager to

just facilitate some of the final answers that they couldn't find anywhere else.

And no longer was I the person that was the keeper of the

knowledge, the source of all truth.

Mm-hmm.

I had all of the product data.

That was now commoditised, you know?

Yeah.

And I saw it myself, and I was like, it is amazing to see

that this research backs it up.

You, you and I were laughing about that before.

When the numbers back up what you know, it's like you high-five yourself.

But I saw that, and the other thing that I'd just add is whenever I was going out

on site to see a customer, and I think people forget about this in an online

world, is that I would know the warehouse person, I would know the receptionist.

Yep.

I would know the buyer.

I would know the CEO.

I would know the research and development teams.

I would know- Yeah … literally everybody in that business, whereas I found

marketers to be funny, that they're so targeted that we have one ICP, and that's

the only person we should worry about.

But you're kinda saying no, we should broaden our horizons a little."

Yeah, 100%, and, like, to that point, I remember back in the day when we would

go, you know, when I was on the research side, and the receptionist, the way you

treated the receptionist, uh, they would call back and say, "Huh, this, these folks

were really wonderful," or, "They were not so great." And, the, it didn't progress.

The relationship and the conversation didn't progress.

So those relationships absolutely matter, and certainly, to your

point, like, if you have your champion on board that's not enough.

It has to be that entire group.

And the number of people involved in that group I was shocked when I heard up to 22.

Literally, you cannot fit them in a room.

It is crazy, but it is the reality because I think the underlying piece,

like you said, is the fact that nobody wants to go and sign off on a

million-dollar deal and get it wrong.

And I've seen it within businesses where the company bought a brand-new, shiny

CRM system, a million dollars plus, and come hell or high water, they were

gonna force us all to use it whether we liked it or not because someone

actually signed off on it and said, "This is what I think we should go with."

And if you sit around and think about everything we're talking about today

through the lens of how can what we're learning today with Vida actually help

us help that person achieve their goals and build that trust, I think you'll get

so much out of this episode because it's not just nodding and saying, "Yeah, Vida,

that's a great stat," but, like, how do we actually practically apply it back?

And one of the things, you, you recently did a keynote, and this is something

that I think has really captured a, a lot of people's attention on the

platform right now, and it focused on B2B creators becoming the new demand engine.

And I think anytime we hear the words demand engine, you

know, marketers' ears prick up.

And what's driving that shift away from traditional kind of corporate marketing

towards this creator-led influence?

Is it all that it's cracked up to be?

We'll find out, but what we're seeing so far is that I think that

part… One of the main drivers is who is, who the buying committee is.

So 71% of them are millennials or Gen Z.

And so that's really important, and I think that as you- we've seen the

generations enter, uh, the workforce, they've really changed the dynamics of how

we all sit around a table and think about marketing or think about decision-making.

So we talk about it at the institute as coherence.

There is a need for coherence when it comes to messaging.

So it's not about having one phenomenal ad that everyone loves.

That's not gonna drive your ultimate trust or decision-making.

It's about what we call the credibility stack.

So from the brand setting a point of view, to the employees talking about the

brand, to the lived experience of peers and customers, and all the way through to

creators, which have the ability to really be the connective tissue and drive that

brand messaging across their networks.

It's interesting.

I- there's a couple of things going on for me right now on the platform.

I'm feeling really old as a Gen X-er and about to have a significant milestone

birthday at the end of the year.

I am finding right now that there are things going on that are

just making my head spin, and I'm saying, "I don't get it."

And one of the tricks that I'm having is a lot of my clients are in a

similar age group, do not appreciate the significant influence of the 71%

on the platform, the decision-making process, the buying process.

We're not just talking about LinkedIn here.

We're talking about, get this, real-life buying.

And you know, it's just a reflection of the workforce, and from that perspective,

people keep saying we have to be boring, we have to be professional.

The people that we're dealing with don't wanna have fun, or they have

this certain set of expectations.

And I actually feel like the businesses that don't acknowledge that this is what's

going on and adapt to this, this is where it's gonna break for them, and we're

gonna find out who is the differentiator here because the numbers, right?

It's just back to the numbers, like you said.

Yeah, I mean, listen, we definitely see those in the workforce that are impacting

the culture of the workforce, right?

So, in, from my TikTok days in the beginning, everyone said, "Oh,

TikTok, that's just Gen Z. Nobody else is on TikTok." Well, Let me

tell you, there's a whole range…

All generations are covered when it comes to TikTok, and some of my

favourite creators were actually the ones there, that were in their 80s and 90s.

So, um, I think that it's less about the generations themselves, and it's

more about the culture, the reflection, the expectation that is being shifted,

uh, because we're all learning from each other in all directions.

Yeah, they certainly don't suffer fools, and if you don't walk the talk, like,

your brand is gonna come under fire.

That is the thing that I probably respect and love the most and go, "Yes, I wish

there was more of that as I was growing up." I'm high-fiving the Gen Zers that

might be listening to the podcast.

Shout out to you guys because sometimes there are things that

you do that I am just going, I hope that translates throughout business

because it's been a long time coming.

You know, my grandma ways, uh, you know, here.

But it, it is something that people struggle with.

We are fundamentally breaking the way that things have always been done

with this generation, and I think as marketers we need to stop and think,

how are we gonna do things different?

Because I think dragging the same playbooks from the last 30 years into the

future aren't really gonna do the trick, and it's gonna be interesting, and I think

that's the fun part if we look at it.

But I think if we try and hold onto how things were done and have always

been done, um, I think some people are gonna be a little upset by that.

So it's an interesting time, that's for sure.

But what is it about creators or employee experts or corporate influencers or

whatever you wanna call them- What is it that helps them build buyer confidence

faster than the brand channels alone?

You know I love a good Company Page, but this is something that

even I put my hands in the air and say, "Yep, these guys have got it."

Listen, we, we, we have to touch on the employees, uh, because we have

to touch on them, right, Michelle?

Because you and I have a, have a, love for how actually employees can

drive their own careers, but also, uh, the, the overarching company.

I'm sure you have all the numbers.

You've seen the numbers, that there's more … Ultimately, employees have,

like, 5 to 10x times the connections that a Company Page has followers.

And there's a huge gap, right?

There's roughly only 3% of employees are posting company-relevant information.

So huge opportunity.

And why is it working?

It's working because we see the data when it comes to engagement.

We're seeing that they're talking about, things that are

happening behind the scenes.

People ultimately buy from people.

You know?

They buy f- buy from you when you were in sales.

And they don't buy from Company Pages alone.

There needs to be people that are in the mix.

There definitely does need to be people in the mix, and as you say, like, how do

you get the people to come and work there?

It's the brand.

You know, like, and this is the part that I, I love talking about, is that

we have to see both sides, right?

100%, and I think creators can help to supercharge that.

But we've seen that customers are able to really talk about their lived experience

in a way that's really authentic.

The numbers are significant.

So if you get a peer recommendation, so Michelle, if you were to recommend

a brand to me, I'm three times more likely to go with that brand versus

one that is cheaper or one that has a higher, uh, quality product.

So the lived experience from customers is sort of the starting point of the

why is it working, how is it working?

And when it comes to creators customers are looking to them to demonstrate

the product, to tell them about, you know, the brand, to really bring them

into the fold in a way that feels real, in a way that really drives that

relationship, that trust that, it's hard to do just as a Company Page alone.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna share an exact example of how that played out recently.

I was speaking at Social Media Marketing World, and they have an exhibitor area

where lots of brands have their stands, "Come and check out our products," right?

And of course I like to keep an eye on most of them, but I happened to be

standing at the time at the Vista Social booth that they had, and they had a bunch

of people, and they were giving away cool stuff, and they had T-shirts, and all

the other, you know, "Here's our demo, sign up," you know, this is all great.

But the piece that made me pay attention to that particular product more than

anything was, shout-out to Lucie and Barry, two friends of mine who I've

met through the conference, they happened to be standing there at the

same time, and basically both of them in unison said, "Michelle, you really

need to go and check Vista Social out," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And both of them just went on at me about how much they loved it, how

great it was, why I should do it.

Yeah.

And I literally told the CEO and owner of Vista Social, "Next stand, forget the

T-shirts, forget everything else, just pay those two to come and talk about your

product out the front of the booth in just a, you know, conversational kind of way."

And it was, like I literally was just like, "Oh, shut up and take my money," as

we've got an ad here in Australia says.

And it's, it was something that I just realised the power of it.

And I, I agree with you, I don't think we do enough of that in an online

world- Mm-hmm … because we're so focused on being professional and

corporate and those types of voices, that we forgot what's important.

Those customer referrals, I don't think they've ever gone out of fashion, right?

Never.

And actually the interesting thing is that when we look, look, when we looked

at the ads with Ipsos, uh, what we found was that creator-led ads were 1.2x

times more likely to drive consideration than the average ad database and their

benchmarks, and 1.5 times more likely to drive brand building So long, like

so okay, sales we sort of knew that, you know, your friend is gonna ask you to go

over there and check out this new brand.

We're gonna go and figure out, consider it, and really kick the tyres.

But the long-term brand building was the one that really was interesting

to me because there's a, there's like a credibility or a trust transference

that happens and sticks over time.

And that's, that's kind of amazing.

It is amazing because I think it's the power of people.

This is why I was so drawn to your post because I've been seeing it a lot

more as more people reach out to me as a creator and ask me to talk about

their brands and promote their brands and sometimes their brand partnerships

and which I, I love and if any- anyone that's listening to this has an

opportunity where you'd like me to talk about your brand, reach out and connect

with me because I've seen it myself.

I struggle with what I see play out on the platform is the creator or this

employee influencer, they're not gonna get the numbers as high as somebody

that is like a proper creator that spends a lot of time video editing and

the like and does cool, funny stuff.

And I always think that people just see influencers on LinkedIn or

socials in general as those people that get hundreds of thousands

impressions, lots of engagement.

But actually, there's a space for those subject matter experts in businesses,

and the people … In every industry there are people that are just trusted

and go to and have probably moved around to a number of different businesses,

but I'd love to see more of that.

I'd love to hear from more of those voices because they're the real deal, right?

I totally agree, and I think that in, in niche some verticals partic-

particularly we have those in B2B, I would say the creators are more important.

Because in those verticals, you know, those voices carry a heavier weight,

and they're looked to way more.

And I think, you know, we're gonna go there, but video is really what's allowed

all of this to happen and to happen at scale, if you will, across all of

the relationships and, and networks.

Let's talk about video because you've described video as

the new language of B2B.

And I'm a little skeptical on this one.

On one hand, I l- I, I can see where you're coming from.

On the other hand I don't know that it lands particularly

well on LinkedIn specifically.

But here's the thing, I'm gonna sit back with an open mind.

Why is video becoming such an important part of how creators

build trust and credibility today?

Yeah.

I mean, we're seeing it on platform data.

We're seeing that when it comes to video, it's three times more engaging

than other formats on LinkedIn.

And listen, it's budding, it's still starting up certainly on LinkedIn.

But when I think about video, I think about it more holistically,

and I also look to the CMOs.

What are the CMOs seeing?

And actually, four in five CMOs are saying that video is

accelerating their sales cycles.

And some hy- you know, that'll be, that'll be more for us to dig into, but some early

hypotheses as to why is because you are getting to experience individuals, right?

Like video means that most likely you're seeing people, which we know,

as we've already talked about, um, is gonna drive more credibility,

is gonna drive more interest.

You're gonna get more lean in.

But also, uh, video is allowing you to experience something, and that has

a three, literally three-dimensional, right, uh, experience and at scale.

So I think that video is a place or a format that will drive more

trust because of just the inherent uh, parts of video, if you will.

And more so than it's less cognitive load certainly than reading posts,

and also it's less likely to be written by, you know, an LLM or an AI.

You see the person.

So I love that part of it.

I love the human part of video, and I think that's why we're seeing it

really drive the conversation on the platform, but also off platform.

Have you got any stats, since you're our stats guru- I am … uh, here,

that is there any pros and cons to the polished corporate videos versus just

the human grab your phone and record?

Which way should marketers be leaning towards?

Because I know that when we talk about marketers and what they're going to

do, quite often what happens is, "Yeah, that's really nice for you and your stats,

like, to do all those fun videos, but we're corporate and our brand guidelines

y- say that we need to do this."

And I'm trying to convince people to actually look at both options because I

think they have a place, but do you have some numbers that can back up either way?

I have some numbers.

Um- Love it … so from our creator study, uh, we found that lo-fi and polished,

so basically, like, three scales.

So we've got lo-fi videos, we've got polished videos, and

we've got professional videos.

And so the lo-fi and the middle, right, and polished are 1.3 times

more likely to drive brand impact.

Something like this which is, I would say it's, like, polished, right?

It's right in the middle.

We've got a little bit, and then we can take this and cut it up

and leverage parts of it to really drive the conversation forward.

So 100% totally in agreement with you.

I think that's the piece of the puzzle that marketers often can hear things like

this conversation that we're having today.

I certainly saw it while I was at Social Media Marketing World.

A lot of people in the room going, nodding, going, "Yep, this sounds great.

The numbers stack up, but I'd get the sack if I do that in my business," you know?

And I literally had that conversation with somebody going, "Yeah, that's nice

for you, but by the time my governance team, my this team, my that team all

approve my post, like, forget about it." And I think that's… You know, I just

wanna acknowledge the challenge that some of the marketers listening might

have, but I'm hoping with the stats that you're providing us, that maybe

you can go back and say, "Actually, what we're talking about here is how

we can increase the brand," and that pays back real dollars over time.

There is a financial reward to doing this kind of thing that we're talking about.

So I, I, love pushing that envelope, and I love that you've shared the numbers

to back up why people should do it.

But if B2B creators are becoming the new demand engine, what do you

think that the smart marketers that are listening to this podcast today,

what do you think that they can do in 2026 to really get ahead of this?

So I have a few thoughts coming off of the discussion.

The first one is employees.

So we talked a little bit about employees, and I really believe that

what's important to drive employees to be engaged is not to give them scripts,

but to give them storylines, right?

That allows them to post and engage naturally within their network.

So that's one thing that's just a, a bonus thought, if you will.

But more to the point on creators you know, we launched this DNA framework.

The A is all about anchoring in brand.

And what I'll say is that, listen, you know, we probably have folks who have

been in advertising for a really long time, and they know the rules of branding.

They know that brand is super important, and we actually have to lean into that

more when it comes to the creator space.

So working with a creator is not about leaning away from brand.

It's actually about leaning into brand.

And so I think that's a critical piece of the puzzle.

In our report, one of the pieces that I love is all about repurposing.

So, like, how do you do more with less?

We're always thinking about that given what's going on in the world, and

budgets, you know, seem to never go up.

They always go in the opposite direction.

Events in particular, I think are a low-hanging fruit.

I don't wanna say an easy way, so it's not, and you know, it's not fully easy,

but you already have your brand set up.

You already have, people there.

Customers are coming to lean in.

There's a natural sort of connection to leverage some of

that existing events to capture what we call lightning in a bottle.

So it was one of our trends for the contrarian marketer that had

to do with the B2B bottle episode.

So it was all about thinking about events as a content production part

of your strategy, and actually, that lines up to creators because you may

actually have creators at events, and that might be an easy way to try it

and to try it in a lo-fi or a polished environment and to see where it goes.

I think it's all about trying things and just seeing what lands, and not just once.

Can we just agree that trying something is not we did one video and it didn't land?

That's not trying.

Like we need to give these things a bit of time to actually land with the audience

and do the jobs that they're meant to.

One video alone is not enough.

Can we agree on that, Vida?

Like

100% in agreement there with you, Michelle.

We gotta, you know, optimise from the one.

Yeah.

Look, we laugh, but I have literally sat in a Company Page audit recently

with a client and, you know, literally came back to them and said, you know,

they were actually missing just some text posts as part of the mix or, there

wasn't too many, uh, different style videos with humans in them, and I was

like, "Can we, like, throw these in?"

They're like, "We tried one of those two years ago." And I was like,

"Okay." Like how do I handle this, you know, delicately, which is not

my strong point during those audits.

I'm there to help people get more out of their time on LinkedIn.

But it was just funny because that is kind of what happens is we tried it once,

it didn't work, and by didn't work, I think most people just measure things on

impressions and engagement rate, and I think that's one of the tricks with how do

you measure brand-building in a way on the platform that you can just get a report

from LinkedIn that just spits out the number and says, "You built your brand."

It, it just, it doesn't exist, and I… Can you guys come

up with something like that?

That'd be amazing.

We'll get right on it.

I wish it existed, but the reality, like, to your point, is that

brand-building takes time, right?

Like, building a brand, it takes a really long time.

And also, those sale cycles, like, I would point you back to those 272 days, right?

You might try something on day one and not actually see the impact for 271 more.

So- Mm-hmm … we have to give things room certainly to breathe.

I would say it's actually one of the exciting parts of all these,

like, interest graph algorithms.

If it's a video that's not gonna be catchy and people will probably not see it.

So you, you gotta keep at it and see what sticks, figure out what's working,

what's landing with your audience.

It might… One style might work on a Company Page.

Another style might work with a creator.

A third style might be the way to do it with employees, and it has to have

that organic nature of life, you know?

Um, because, you know, to your point it's all about taste and style, and the way

you and I will chat will be different from you know, you and Ty or, or somebody else.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, look, and I think the thing that I think is missing from

marketers' language That I think they can learn from salespeople

is we hear know, like, and trust.

That's, like, the catch cry of everything that we should be doing is get people

to know us, like us, and trust us.

And I actually think that what's missing in there, and for me it comes

first, I think there's rapport-building needs to be somewhere in there.

And that happens over time, and that happens differently for

each person, like you just said.

And it could be at different levels within a business, different widths.

A- and you know, when I say to people during training, like, "You should

build your community and connect with everybody you possibly can at your

target customer," and they're like, "But I only deal with the marketing

manager, I only deal with the CEO," or the, "I only deal with the procurement

officer," or whoever it happens to be.

I'm like, if only life was that simple, you know?

A- and I think be friends with as many people as you can within businesses

because, and this is what I say, and my experience tells me this, is you do

not know who hung out at last year's Christmas party and had the time of

their life, who's been working together for the longest, they've been there for

20 years, jumped through different de- departments, uh, whose kids go to school,

whose, you know, who plays Little League together, to use, you know, a sporting

analogy from your part of the world.

You don't know those relationships until you really do the work, and you

won't do it while you've just got your blinkers on on who you think is the

number one person in the business that is gonna sign off on a buying decision.

And I think we've learned that today, that video can really help us with that.

Now, I know we've gone slightly over time, but just quickly, Vida, before

I of course tell people to go to the show notes, grab the connection,

uh, details for you over on LinkedIn and of course the B2B Institute, but

has there been any cool new released information come out that the listeners

should know so that they go and check it out on the B2B Institute's website?

Because, like I said, I love your research.

Thank you.

Yes, so we have our Trends for the Contrarian Marketer, which is

rolling launching, so they should all be out in a couple of weeks.

And then we have The Credibility Code, which will be out, whitepaper

will drop in a few weeks as well.

So we're really excited.

Come check it out.

Ping me, let's talk about it.

Love the conversation and the feedback.

To your point, Michelle, like, we all have different wonderful

things to add to the conversation.

Yeah, I love that you guys drive those conversation.

I, I see the influence that it has, you know, in posts across the

world, when people are speaking, they're talking about this research.

Like, it really is that next level quality, and I appreciate all

of the work that the team does.

Please pass that back to them.

Say, uh, you know, it's just great to have somebody doing that research,

and especially in combination with the Edelman Institute, which is

here in Australia, so it's always a shout-out to those guys as well.

Vida, thank you for everything that you've shared today I hope that it's

given marketers some new things to think about, and maybe if they've

skipped over some things that they can go back and give it another try.

So I appreciate everything that you've shared today.

Thank you.

Thanks for having me, Michelle.

Of course.

So listeners, until next week, what is it that you are gonna try differently?

Just let me know in the comments or reach out and connect with me on

LinkedIn if we're not already, and tell me after listening to this episode,

what did you actually try differently this week that maybe before you

listened you hadn't given it a go?

Until then, cheers.