Beyond Profit: How Purpose-Driven Brand Values Shape B2B Futures with Melissa Packham

TRANSCRIPT

Michelle J Raymond: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to the LinkedIn for B2B Growth Show. I'm your host, Michelle J Raymond, and I'm just going to premise this show with, I can't promise that it's not going to get a little feisty between these two Aussie chicks who are very passionate and we both agree that brand values is something that needs to be talked about.

Melissa Packham, welcome to the show.

Melissa Packham: Thank you so much. And great disclaimer. I love that.

Michelle J Raymond: I'm just putting it out there straight away because you and I were discussing pre show that. Hello, LinkedIn people out there, we're bored, we're bored of the bland. We're bored of businesses all blending in together. And one of the places that I think we need to start is before we even jump onto LinkedIn, which I know you'll a hundred percent agree with me on this, is brand values. How did you end up as this being such a big part of your own business? Like, why is it important to you personally?

Melissa Packham: Okay. I know we've only got a short amount of time, so I'll keep it brief. Cause I could talk about this all day, every day. [00:01:00] For me, it's more important than ever that businesses, embrace the humanity. And so values are a human thing. We need to embrace that in our business and in our lives more than ever.

So for me, it's really, it's about driving that and encouraging that business was always meant to be human to human and to make more of that.

Michelle J Raymond: Yeah, it absolutely is. Why would you say straight up,

Michelle J Raymond: why are values an important part of branding?

Melissa Packham: So brand values are part of a brand's DNA. So there's lots as part of a DNA vision, purpose, values, beliefs, personality, tone of voice.

Those are the core foundations of a brand. You start there. And so brand values as part of that are the moral principles or the guiding principles that help businesses orient around how do we make decisions?

How are we going to show up in the world? What is the type of business we want to do? And it all links back because it's not disconnected from purpose and vision. It all links back to that and helps provide a framework for [00:02:00] how a business can operate. Aligned with what is the purpose and what is our vision for the future.

So that's why it's such an important part, because if you have that, you've got some principles that then help shape decision making, make decision making quicker and easier and aligned and feel good and feel shared among an organisation, and easily communicated among an organisation and because it's such a human thing, people connect with it because it feels meaningful. People understand values because we have them in our personal lives. So that's why it's such an important part and it might feel a bit fluffy, but as we'll get to in this conversation, it's actually really tangible with real commercial, outputs. So getting that right is, is what great brands do.

Michelle J Raymond: I would say when I first set up my business three years ago as the accidental entrepreneur, it literally came out of, I was working for someone who did not share my values. So imagine winning a $2 million order from a LinkedIn post, a $2 million piece of business. So the high of that, followed by a few [00:03:00] weeks later, the business owner reneging on that deal and pushing me under a bus.

And let's just say I quit on the spot and that is why my business was born. And it was called Good Trading Co. So the focus on the good, cause I had worked with a run of bad bosses and I was like, I want to do good business with good people. That is the founding value of my business and the rest of it's going to grow from there.

I had no idea what I would be doing or where I'd be going or what it looked like. But it was the first and only thing that I think I did intentionally when I was setting up my business. That, and maybe choosing the colour teal to represent my mum, they're probably the only two intentional things that everything else was just go with the flow, but I think it is way up front and it does guide you on everything else. And you know, I'm really lucky that I chose that because now I'm surrounded by good businesses and good people, which is just the best, but here's the problem that I have, Melissa, which I think why some other people might [00:04:00] push back when we talk about things, which they might seem like values are a bit airy fairy. Things like greenwashing are out there.

Are you ready for this? But how do you strike the balance? Between incorporating your values and not making them sound like they're just made up, promotional or forced, which I think is how they come across sometimes with some businesses. What's your secret to getting around this?

Melissa Packham: They have to be true. They have to be real. They have to be embedded. If they're not true, then it's going to come across as false, simple. It's the, it's the opposite, right? If they're not embedded, it's going to be a poster on a wall that gathers dust over time and fades in the sunlight. It's not going to mean anything.

So for it to actually mean something and to be not seen as overly promotional or feel false. And we all know we've got the detector. You can always tell when it's not quite right. If what someone says is not what they do, there's a disconnect and we can sniff it out.

So it has to be true, has to be embedded [00:05:00] and has to be lived and breathed and held accountable. That's the other part of it is, it's great to do the fluffy fun, get the marketing girl in workshop and do the brand values. And have them then printed up. But then what happens next is actually what's really important.

And that's the marker of integrity. That's where a lot of businesses fall over as they do the exercise. And of course it feels fluffy and pointless if it's not actually doing anything, it's not guiding decision making, no one's accountable for it. We're not checking in on each other. We're not holding each other accountable in the organisation.

There's no mechanism to do that. When it feels false, it is because it's actually not working. So it's at that point, if it's not feeling right, doesn't feel true. You can't actually articulate what the values are and what they mean for the organisation.

Stop, reset, re engage, reassess what that means for the business, and how that's actually playing out.

Words on a page are one thing, but the so what is the important part and that's what, what takes it from fluff piece [00:06:00] to actually, brand building, equity building, revenue driving kind of activity.

And that's what I'm really passionate about is the system, the whole picture, not just the individual exercise that feels fun to do on a company retreat day, because that's lovely, but that's not the end of the story.

Michelle J Raymond: I'm just laughing because I'm thinking back to some of the corporate days that I've had in my career where it was sit around and sing Kumbaya and we wrote it on the butcher's paper list and notes on we're all pumped and we're all excited.

And then we leave that and then we head back to the office and it's business as usual. No one cares. Maybe it gets printed on a document somewhere that's hidden away, or you get it on your first of induction and that's the last day you ever hear about it, and certainly no one lives those values on any level.

Now I come from the beauty industry. The marketing claims around that industry, around clean beauty for instance. There are people that use it 'cause it looks good and all of their [00:07:00] other competitors are doing it.

But it is literally greenwashing. There's nothing else about their processes, their ingredient selection, their employees. Like there's nothing that aligns with it on a bigger value. I think now what we're seeing even here in Australia is people are just calling it out.

Like the younger generations are going, you know what, you're not really doing it. It's more than just sticking it on a label, you know, figuratively and literally sometimes.

Melissa Packham: Totally, totally. And like Gen Z, the young, the young folk, they're coming up, right. They're, they're about, they're about to hit middle management. They are influential. They're huge as an audience and with huge buying power as consumers, but also in the workplace. And they are absolutely calling this out with with good reason. And they have the confidence to do so, which is awesome because we never had the confidence to call it out. So, uh, yes, in terms of, you know, B2B and business growing and continuing to endure, we have to [00:08:00] answer to these because these people, younger gen and gen alpha is the next one coming through.

They will not stand for this and it has to be authentic. There has to be, like you said, processes, policies, infrastructure, resources put towards the things that you say you're going to do, uh, especially around, you know, not just corporate social responsibility, but the way you do business. The way you handle customer service outcomes, the way that you respond to negative feedback online, the way you advocate and lobby for causes that you say you're aligned to. It's not just posting the rainbow tile or posting the black square.

What else is happening there? If you say that, that's what you believe. What policies do you have for your employees? You know, what support do you have? What, how are you lobbying and engaging in the community to support those causes? The time for greenwashing, impact washing, social washing, rainbow [00:09:00] washing, it's done. Do better.

Michelle J Raymond: I think we should just stop the podcast there, like do better. I think that should be the, uh, the call out on this one, because here's the thing when it comes to LinkedIn specifically, when we talk about those younger generations, cause I, I am Gen X. And so when we look at the stats of who's using LinkedIn, 65% are down in Gen Z and millennials. 65% of the LinkedIn platform. Now, if you do not have that in mind, they will be decision makers, general managers running the show because they're wired that way and they're coming into that age group with that experience. They're all educated and you know what they're coming and if you don't adapt your whole business, not just your LinkedIn strategy, but you know, if we're looking at what we put out into the socials.

They are so wise to it, they are awake, they know what your games are. And, you know, the fact [00:10:00] is all the research, Melissa, and I'm sure you'll agree, just says, we don't trust content that comes out from brands. We just say that you're going to say whatever you wanted, because that's what you've always done.

And we don't actually trust you. And I think that's something that we need to be mindful of that we've got to earn trust. I think we start in the negatives and you have to earn your way up as a brand, as opposed to, we start at zero and we just go, I think we're, you know, behind the eight ball and you have to work hard.

This thing's not going to happen with one little pretty post, like you said, with you know, it's pride month, like, you know what? It's a little bit more than that to me.

Melissa Packham: Yeah. Or international women's day and we've got purple cupcakes for everybody. Hooray. And there's still pay gap. Or, you know, lack of support when it comes to childcare or parental leave, like these things are archaic. It's, it's time to catch up and catch up and then do better, do more than what is regulated or specified, or, you know, do better than your [00:11:00] competitors and you'll attract and retain good people who want to be part of that company.

So that's the other part of brand values and getting it right is that you will create competitive advantage and if that's the only marker of success, which it shouldn't be, but if it is, um, then that's enough of a business case in my mind to get it right and to do it, to do it well and consistently and, and review on an annual basis, if not more.

How is this playing out? Are we doing what we said we were going to do for us as a company, our employees, our shareholders, our suppliers, our customers, everybody, all the stakeholders.

Michelle J Raymond: The world's becoming very transparent. We have access to information at all levels and people demand it. Again, to go back to the beauty industry as my example, when I was selling those ingredients, the amount of paperwork that started to go with every ingredient about where did it come from? Did you go and pull down a rain forest? Did [00:12:00] you have children in mines, getting mica out of the ground, , like, where is this stuff coming from?

So that transparency throughout the whole supply chain in whatever business and industry you're in. It's been really crazy to watch that from my time, you know, 20 years in B2B sales. Once upon a time, yeah, there was no conversations along those lines. And then over time now it's a must have, this isn't just a nice to have anymore. This is table stakes. This is how you get to play the game, Otherwise you're left behind, you know, and I can see I've pressed one of your buttons. Tell me, tell me, what's going on?

Melissa Packham: I know, I'm like, I'm moving. I'm, I'm physically moving about this point because, uh, yeah. It's like, we never asked those questions. So, you know, my background is FMCG food and beverage. We never asked enough of the, we got the surface level questions, make sure we're getting, the ingredients from the right types of rainforests and we're not killing orangutans, but you know, to the point of through the supply chain, are we asking our kids making our [00:13:00] product?

Like it's kind of the basics, right? Like. Don't have child labour, don't have modern slavery, and that's what values allow us to do and, and make it the, the accountability piece becoming so important here is we say these are our values, but we're choosing not to look too hard at, you know, behind the screen to actually check the whole piece of the puzzle because that's actually not in integrity.

And there's, I've got another bugbear, which is probably a good time to raise it here, but company values should never be integrity, quality, trust, because that's table stakes. That's what we talk about, right? You have to, if you're , if you don't have integrity, you shouldn't be in business. If you're not focused on quality, your customers will know and they will, they'll shoot it out , they'll shoot it down quickly.

Uh, if, if you don't have trust that or you're not trustworthy, stop . So, you know, [00:14:00] those are the basics. That's assumed that you will have that as, as part of your foundation. You don't need to make that your brand value 'cause it's just, that's the ticket to the game to play.

Michelle J Raymond: It just blows my mind you would even have to say, it's like when people say LinkedIn, be authentic, like, no, you don't be it. You just are it like, this that we slap on, I won't press that button, but cause I'll go off on a tangent and start ranting, but authenticity is not a buzzword. It is not something that you be, you just are. People are so awake to what happens, especially in an online world. If you don't think that people's BS meter is going off when you try and pretend and you don't back things up and you know, you get whirled into the fancy marketing and all the great promises.

And then you. Go behind the Wizard of Oz curtain and realise, ah, okay, it's not all as it seems, all that glitters is not gold. If you think you can get away with it, we just don't live in a world where we can anymore.

But I want to kind of flip it back onto the positives [00:15:00] for how brand values can really help because we can see when businesses get it wrong, but if they get it right.

Michelle J Raymond: How can they help in a year, like we're having today with, here in Australia, inflation's through the roof, cost of living challenges. And I know that's around the world. How can brand values help businesses in times like this?

Melissa Packham: Well, it, it helps to come back to the core, right? So brand, if brand values are part of your brand, DNA then that's, that's the core of your operation. And so in times of crisis or, difficulty, the last five years really has been for a lot of businesses. Coming back to those values is a really great way to kind of go, how, how will we move through this?

How are we going to. What's the light at the end of that tunnel? And how can we use our values to guide us through how we attack that? And it can be, you know, policies and things like that. But it also can be innovation and creativity and inviting new ways to solve problems. So, you know, with everything that businesses are facing [00:16:00] right now, and there's a lot of challenges at the macro and the micro level, brand values give us something to hook onto and to go, you know, at the end of this, we want to be seen and known as being X, and we're going to use our brand values to help make sure that we end up there because in times of crisis, it's very easy to drop everything that doesn't deliver a short term result or, we make quick decisions based out of panic and fear, but brand values give us something to, you know, Hook back to and remember what it is that we're doing here and how we said we wanted to show up.

And is that still true? If yes, proceed. If no, what does that look like then? And how can we evolve that to give us a path forward? So I really do believe that brand values do offer opportunity to evaluate every part of the business and provide really tangible ways to improve, innovate, If make more efficient, that all of those lovely things that, you know, the business words [00:17:00] come out of this real fluff piece.

 It really helps, it gives something to hook onto, especially in these uncertain times where it's, it's hard, nothing feels stable, nothing feels the same. Ideally, brand values are the rock that you can come back to and kind of go, how, how might we do this? And in conjunction with purpose and vision, what are we doing here? What are we here for? How are we going to get through this? These things help guide the decision making and the good brands do that really well.

Michelle J Raymond: It's comforting. We know what we're going to do. We know where we're going to go. This is going to be okay. And I think then you've attracted all the right kinds of people to work there as well, that share that vision and that kind of those values, which again, just makes life easier rather than trying to drag people along going, come on, this is going to be fun.

This is where we've got to go. You know, when you've got the wrong people, it impacts so many different ways ., but there's a definite, you know, for those looking for a financial return, I can see so [00:18:00] many different ways that this would play out and actually generate that.

Let's talk about LinkedIn when it comes to values. One of the ways that we can show that is by sharing content.

Michelle J Raymond: How do you encourage your clients to share about their values through like posts or articles or videos? Is there some creative ways that maybe you've tried. I just want to know, how do you take values from a piece of paper that you then lived in the business and put it out in social land?

Melissa Packham: That's a really good question. I'm going to be very careful with the way that I answer this because I don't want to give the impression that you just take values make some Canva posts and then pop them out these are our values. This is what we do come and work with us. Like it, that's when it feels inauthentic.

Like we were talking about earlier, that's when it feels self promotional. Show don't tell is always my advice to clients. How will you show these values to people? And, and what stories can you build around these to help demonstrate that [00:19:00] this is true and embedded and part of the way that you do business.

So instead of, converting them to a post itself, it's about, um, how does this look, you know, in times of crisis is a great example. Canva and Atlassian are great examples of businesses that during, the overturning of Roe versus Wade in the States, quickly got into action and put support mechanisms in and, and funding for employees to support them in, in their personal lives, because that's values that they held true.

And so that's without saying our value is making sure that people have access to safe health care instead of saying that they provided the resources and the infrastructure to, to enable that. And so that's a demonstration of those values in action. Similarly, during COVID, if you're a business, the difference of, the way values play out is, if we're family first. We support families, but during [00:20:00] COVID, we say, no, well, you still have to be online from eight until five, and we're going to monitor you. And we're going to keep, you know, that we're going to check that little green lights on at all times. And actually now it's time to come back to the office before you're actually ready.

Those kinds of things versus the company that's providing, okay, here's the flexibility here, here are the tools and the resources that you're going to need to work from home. And we understand that's going to be a really complicated time. So here's how we're going to shape the work day and create that space so that, because we understand how challenging that is.

Cause Hey, we're people too, and we're dealing with the same stuff because we're all people, this, the entity that people talk, the business, this, strange, alter ego kind of, uh, you know, big brother esque thing that, that happens. So in terms of, , showing don't tell that's, that's how businesses can do it.

And if it makes sense to share that with an audience, go for it, share the story. There's the caution especially in Australia, there's the tall poppy syndrome, and we're very [00:21:00] quick to cut people down if we think that they're being too, you know, just like get down.

 But I think like, like we were saying, Gen Z, uh, Millennials, are starting, they want to hear those stories because they want to know that people are being looked after and that environment is being cared for and that, we're creating a safe and just world. Finding the right stories, finding the right channels that, that are actually authentic, like you said, you don't, you don't be authentic.

You just are, that will come through naturally through storytelling. We're human, we're wired for stories. So finding the ways to share those stories, will come naturally if they're true and if they're real and, actually happening.

Michelle J Raymond: So not from ChatGPT in a Canva template. Is that what you're trying to tell me here? I'm happy to let you launch.

Melissa Packham: Preferably not, um, because that, how long have we got? Let's just check the time.

Michelle J Raymond: It probably never enough, right? Because this the kind of thing it's for me, what makes me mad is [00:22:00] when it becomes a tick and flick exercise. Like, Oh, you know, it's this awareness month tick. We've done that. Oh, on the calendar, it's this month. Okay. Tick. We've done that. But then the actual, as you said, the experience of those working there or the clients, the customers or distributors or manufacturers. Like that's not their experience. So you've got this thing that stands out and it's like, what's you guys aren't that, and everyone knows, and this is the thing that I just want to say to people over and over again, you can't fake it. This isn't a fake it till you make it kind of situation.

This is, you gotta do it. You gotta do the hard work. You got to put the effort in. You've got to create the culture, this is what I say to clients when I'm working with them. I can post all you like on LinkedIn and say whatever you want. I can make you sound amazing. But the second that someone goes to deal with your business and that's not their experience, we've broken that trust.

You break that trust, you're never getting it back it's gone. It is [00:23:00] exploded into a million pieces and you're not getting that opportunity back again. That's how precious I think trust is in a digital world, especially. That if your game plan on LinkedIn doesn't align with what's happening in the real world in your business on a day to day basis.

Forget about it. It looks pretty, it's going to be completely ineffective.

Melissa Packham: We're crying out for this now. We're crying out for this authenticity. We're crying out for, you know, a genuine, deliberate, intentional, considered approach to this stuff because it pays off as well as being good for everybody involved. It pays off commercially.

So getting it right now and spending the time is worth it. It's the difference between creating a business or a brand. And there's a difference. Anyone can create a business. AI will be able to as well. AI is, if you look at TikTok, everybody is creating side hustles and they're using formulas, templates, Chat GPT , [00:24:00] it's all just, and who are we selling to then? Whose problem are we solving then? How do we understand that? How do we empathise with the people that we are here to serve, not to sell to, to serve? And remembering that B2B is especially for, you know, remembering that we are serving somebody and that serving mindset over a selling mindset.

Becomes really important and brings the humanity back into it and helps us make those decisions without just spitting out what everyone else is spitting out and feeling homogenous and creating homogenous, boring, bland, mediocre results as a result.

Michelle J Raymond: When we talk about business growth, to me, it does have a number on it in, you know, you can measure it in lots of different ways, but how do you, when you're working with your clients, measure the ROI of them investing in brand values as part of their business strategies?

Cause I'm sure you probably have some tricky conversations where maybe some people in the business are totally on [00:25:00] board. And I imagine it's a spectrum. Some are completely, this is wishy washy, waste of time, get out of my face. Some are like, we've got to save the planet we need to act now, if we don't do this, like the world's going to end and everywhere in between.

So how do we convince people if they will not convince. Show them that there is a genuine ROI on brand values and having them implemented throughout the business.

Melissa Packham: Because I connect all the dots, it's brand values, it's vision, it's purpose, beliefs, personality, tone of voice as a rock solid brand blueprint that a brand acts on, that's the piece. The hard part is the, the resourcing, the acting on it, the execution part, as always, it's always execution that will let us down if we don't do it right.

So. Getting this stuff right means creating distinction and finding a unique way that you serve the people that you seek to serve. And when you create that distinction, you can't be [00:26:00] commoditised. Which means you're not talking about price. Then people aren't haggling with you for your services because you've created and genuinely delivered to the promise.

You've delivered the value. They perceive higher value .When they perceive higher value, they will pay more for you. They pay premium prices because they know what they're getting and value is in the mind or the eye of the beholder, right? They choose the value. They assign that value. When you pay more, more for something, you generate more revenue and revenue growth creates market share growth. You start to take more of the pie or create a bigger pie for everyone that you increase the size of the opportunity. You make your competitors better, which means everyone overall, the rising tide, you know, brings all boats up because it makes it better for everybody, which is, which is ideal.

You've created something, you're the leader in something, and then suddenly everyone else has to keep up with you. And when you're driving [00:27:00] market share, that creates competitive advantage as well. You start to attract and retain amazing people who buy into this and want to be a part of this, which becomes a competitive advantage in itself.

They advocate for you, they're out there doing your marketing for you, which means you're spending less on marketing because you've got this residual amazing stuff happening without you having to invest in it. When you're spending less on marketing, you get to reinvest it into innovation and operations and efficiency and sustainability and all the things that are going to drive the business into the future. So there's really, really tangible outcomes as a result of getting this right. And it's worth spending the time on. So that's how I try and communicate up front and help build, put the resources in place so that businesses can deliver that, but it's, it's having the belief and, you pointed that out.

Having the belief and the decision makers in the room and the people, as part of the organisation all on board. So there's an onboarding piece around [00:28:00] that too. How do we get everybody on side with this? How do we hold regular meetings to, and town hall opportunities and open forums within the organisation to share this and, and remind people that we're open to feedback and being held accountable for this.

It's all of that. And that's what great companies do. That's the blueprint for success.

Michelle J Raymond: Amen. I think it's just a big ditto for me. I don't think there's anything that I can add, but as you were talking, I was thinking about one of my clients. I was working with her this week to redo her LinkedIn profile, which, was a shadow of what she's achieved in her career and we just gave it a glow up and I said, what are you trying to get out of this?

And she goes. Michelle, the thing is at my age, and I think we were probably similar. I'm 47. So she was, give or take somewhere around there. And she said, I've had my family. I've done my things. I want to do things that make a difference. I will only work for companies that are out to make a difference and have a net good approach, which [00:29:00] I was like yes, absolutely. You know, and I'm pleased to say that her LinkedIn profile now reflects that. But I think to me, it's like a feeling that I have lots of conversations with people that the status quo is being challenged, that near enough isn't good enough anymore, that it's time for people to actually make a stand.

And regardless of, you know, the tall poppies syndrome here in Australia, which for my American friends that may not understand what that is, basically those that stand up and stand out, we chop them off at the knees so that they come back down to our level. That's the easiest way for me to describe but you know, it's now we need a world where people are going to be standing out and standing up for things that they care about and making a difference and really supporting those who don't have the same resources or accessibility. I think there's almost a part of, like you said, of lifting other people up and having I think the fancy terms corporate social responsibility, but to me, that sounds like another one of those like wishy washy terms, but I love the [00:30:00] idea behind it. I love that yes, we all have a responsibility to ourselves and to each other and to the planet, as you would say, you know, like it's bigger than just us. And so I'm going to give you one free kick that you can choose to leave my listeners with one last tip or point that you want to share about why this is so important, why they should consider it.

So Melissa, I'm going to roll out the soap box. This is your moment to get whatever it is that you want off your chest that, or that you want to, leave a point with people to make them think why this is so important. So over to you, what is your actionable tip or one thing that you want to leave the listeners with today?

Melissa Packham: That's a big soap box. Thank you for that. Um, I think. You know, for me, this is a very interesting time in history, and there are a lot of converging crises that we are seeing. This is real outside, you know, business is part of the world. If we want to see [00:31:00] brands continue, if we want businesses to endure into the future, they will need to orient to address these crises, it's as simple as that. There is the problems that are happening now are happening because we forgot that business is about humans, humans serving humans, human serving needs. So when we remember that we, we change our perception about what's actually important. When we remember purpose, we change what we're moving towards and, you know, growth and revenue is not a purpose.

That's not the reason for being. The reason is to solve a problem or serve a need. And so shifting the perception on that is more essential now than ever before. Um, and it's the reason that we're finding ourselves in all of these problems. So bring your humanity to to the workplace if you're not, you know, the decision maker, be an intrapreneur and help, you know, championing the causes that your business and organisation are set to, [00:32:00] to best serve and help solve and yeah, reset the thinking on that and gosh, that makes it motivating to show up to work when you're doing that and it makes it so much more interesting. So let's, let's do interesting work that the world needs.

Michelle J Raymond: Well, I think you nailed it. I think there's so many pieces throughout the last, 30 minutes or so that my mind has been kind of focused on, yeah, these are the kinds of clients that I love working with the most, the ones I always say that innovative because they want to try new things, their purpose driven cause I like people that are out to change things in the world and they're ambitious because I want those kinds of people that are out to be the best. Is it what they do? And I think by setting up these foundational steps, like we've spoke about one piece of it today in brand values, Melissa, I appreciate your passion.

I appreciate you caring enough to share this with people. And yeah, I just wanted to say thank you for being that kind of person cause it refreshes my feed. As I was saying, my, my LinkedIn [00:33:00] feeds a little bland. I'm looking for a bit more passion and people that care about stuff. So, uh, please reach out and connect , our details will be in the show notes. Let us know that you listened to the episode because we'd love to build our community with other people who share this same passion. So Melissa, thanks for coming onto the show.

Melissa Packham: Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Michelle J Raymond: Cheers.