How would you rate your LinkedIn content strategy's effectiveness? In a recent study, Less than a third (29%) called theirs extremely or very effective. So, let's ask Ann Handley how she would turn this around in 2025.
Today's episode is sponsored by Metricool. Make sure to register for a FREE Metricool account today. Use Code MICHELLE30 to try any Premium Plan FREE for 30 days. https://i.mtr.cool/NEDXVZ
Key moments in this episode:
00:00 Welcome Ann Handley
04:15 The State of B2B Content Marketing
08:16 Strategies for Spectacular LinkedIn Content
17:48 Personal vs. Personable in Marketing
26:41 Encouraging Experimentation and Differentiation
31:04 Looking Ahead to Content Marketing 2025
Connect with Ann Handley on LinkedIn
ABOUT MICHELLE J RAYMOND
Michelle J Raymond is an international LinkedIn™️ B2B Growth Coach. To continue the conversation, connect with Michelle on LinkedIn™️ and let her know you are part of the community of podcast listeners.
Connect with Michelle J Raymond on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellejraymond/
B2B Growth Co offers LinkedIn™️ Training for teams to build personal and business brands and a LinkedIn™️ Profile Recharge service for Founders/CEOs.
Book a free intro call to learn more - https://calendly.com/michelle-j-raymond/book-an-intro-call-15mins
Social Media for B2B Growth Podcast is a fully accessible podcast. Audio, Video, Transcript and guest details are available on our podcast website - https://socialmediaforb2bgrowthpodcast.com/
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/@MichelleJRaymond
#LinkedIn #ContentMarketing #B2B
00:00:00
Michelle J Raymond: Let's say goodbye to average content and hello spectacular content.
00:00:05
And if you want to figure out how to do that, wouldn't you go to
00:00:08
the G.O.A.T of content marketing?
00:00:10
I know I would.
00:00:12
So I went straight to Ann Handley and I need to warn you, if this is your
00:00:16
first time listening to my podcast.
00:00:19
I apologise for the fangirling moments throughout this episode, because it was as brilliant as
00:00:26
I had dreamt about for the last two years that I wanted Ann to be a guest on the podcast.
00:00:32
So I hope you enjoy it listeners as much as I did.
00:00:52
G'day everyone.
00:00:53
It is Coach Michelle J Raymond here.
00:00:55
And listeners, I think this episode is going to be my favourite episode of the year.
00:01:01
Why?
00:01:01
Because this has been on my bucket list for couple of years to speak to this person,
00:01:07
the OG of content marketing, Ann Handley.
00:01:10
Welcome to the show.
00:01:11
Ann Handley: So delighted to be joining you this afternoon in Boston,
00:01:16
where it's rainy and freezing cold.
00:01:19
And at least I'm here with you getting a little bit of warmth via Australia.
00:01:24
Michelle J Raymond: You can have some of mine.
00:01:26
It's well over the hundred degrees Fahrenheit here already at 7:30 in the morning.
00:01:31
So I am very happy to share.
00:01:34
But, Ann you are the G.O.A.T when it comes to content marketing, as far as I'm concerned.
00:01:40
And I came across you by accident two years ago, roughly.
00:01:44
When I was researching female marketing quotes on Google, and you were the only
00:01:51
female marketer that had quotes that came up, not even telling you a lie on this.
00:01:57
And I was like, why is this person standing out?
00:02:00
And obviously I went down that rabbit hole and had the pleasure of meeting you at Social
00:02:04
Media Marketing World and watching you speak.
00:02:06
So that's how we ended up here.
00:02:08
Can we work together in today's show to get rid of average content and get our
00:02:14
marketers saying hello to spectacular content?
00:02:18
Can we make that happen today?
00:02:20
Ann Handley: We can absolutely make that happen today.
00:02:23
Michelle J Raymond: Before we find out how we can go from average content to spectacular content,
00:02:28
here's a quick word about our sponsors, Metricool.
00:04:15
Ann, why does most B2B content feel average at best?
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Ann Handley: Oh, my goodness.
00:04:21
I thought we were going to start with an easy question.
00:04:24
Why does most B2B marketing content feel average?
00:04:27
Listen, like there's never been a marketer who, when they were a child, snuggled
00:04:33
into their twin bed at their house.
00:04:36
Like they never thought, Oh, I cannot wait to grow up and create mediocre content.
00:04:40
I cannot wait to do that.
00:04:42
That is my life's mission.
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Of course not.
00:04:44
Nobody wants to show up at work and produce stuff that's average at best, right?
00:04:50
But yet that's the reality.
00:04:52
That's what we live with.
00:04:53
And don't take my word for it, even though I am apparently the only woman who comes up
00:04:57
on Google for her marketing expert quotes.
00:05:01
Our recent research that Marketing Profs did with the Content Marketing Institute.
00:05:05
And I know you had Robert Rose on not that long ago um, But we found that, I made this chart.
00:05:10
We found that, here we go.
00:05:12
Okay.
00:05:12
I'm getting the whole thing in there.
00:05:14
We found that 58 percent of B2B marketers rate their content strategy as moderately effective.
00:05:20
And so the extremely effective, this little like sliver up here, this little 3%,
00:05:26
the purple, that is extremely effective.
00:05:29
And that's just that's just.
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sad.
00:05:31
And even the very effective, even the very effective is not that great.
00:05:34
It's the 26 percent there.
00:05:35
So This is what we need to deal with.
00:05:38
Like, why is it moderately effective?
00:05:41
And so I think the numbers, tell the story of what's actually going on.
00:05:46
But yet, when we asked marketers why is it moderately effective or worse?
00:05:50
Like when we drill down into that area, 42 percent of B2B marketers said that a
00:05:56
lack of clear goals is the reason why they didn't rate their content strategy higher.
00:06:02
Now, that lack of clear goals is not coming from marketers.
00:06:06
In fact, very often it's coming in response to shifting leadership priorities or because
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this is marketing and the average CMO tenure is like, what, 10 minutes, something like that.
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It's very short.
00:06:20
Michelle J Raymond: Time for a rebrand.
00:06:21
Ann Handley: Time for a rebrand.
00:06:22
Let's do kick out the CMO.
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You know, Shifting leadership priority, sometimes shifting leadership.
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Lack of budget to develop content.
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That means often like too many cooks in the kitchen, too many people.
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And listen, Michelle, we've all experienced this, that everybody thinks
00:06:38
that they can do the job of the marketer.
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I have never thought that I could do the job of the CFO.
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That would never be on my radar, but yet in a lot of organisations, the CFO thinks they
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can do the job of the marketer or the CMO.
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Everybody thinks they know how to do marketing.
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And so I think those are just some reasons why we are stuck in this sort of, you
00:07:00
know, 58 percent of averageness down here.
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It's not exactly our fault.
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I think it's almost it's just part of what we're dealing with as, as companies, as
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people working within these companies.
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It's just a very challenging environment that we're dealing with.
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There are some other reasons why.
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Like, too many diverse business units.
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Some folks said sometimes people talked about competing brands and products and
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the sort of just, where do you focus?
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Where do you go?
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But I think to me, it all points to the two main things of shifting leadership priorities
00:07:34
or shifting leadership and then the lack of budget and too many cooks in the kitchen.
00:07:39
Michelle J Raymond: Couldn't agree more.
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And I also look at it from the perspective of a lot of the marketers that I
00:07:44
talked to, they are the marketing team.
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It's one person, maybe two people at best, and they're meant to be experts against writing blogs,
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SEO, LinkedIn, you know, TikTok, every other social media platform that you can imagine under
00:07:58
the sun, writing emails, newsletters, you name it.
00:08:02
And by the way, you've got to do it all yourself and we're not giving you the
00:08:05
resources you need to be able to do it.
00:08:08
But I think that is a real struggle for marketers out there who want to do a great job.
00:08:14
I absolutely agree with you.
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And so that's why I wanted to do today's episode with you Ann because I want to
00:08:21
move into, okay, that's where we're at.
00:08:23
But I know with some of your expertise and tips that we can get people more towards
00:08:29
that spectacular, move them up into that top 3 percent where they can go home
00:08:34
every day and go, yes, I'm rocking this.
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I am nailing it.
00:08:38
I am happy with what I'm putting out there.
00:08:41
So let's move into the part where people are listening to this and there's B2B
00:08:46
marketers that are ready to say goodbye to the average and move into spectacular.
00:08:51
But it's time to do a content review first.
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I think we should start with what are they doing now?
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What kinds of things do you think that they should be looking for that kind of would
00:09:02
be a standout that says that's average.
00:09:06
Ann Handley: Yeah, right.
00:09:07
I mean, I think in B2B marketing, we often hear, you have to know your audience, right?
00:09:12
I think what you need to understand who your audience is.
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And while that is technically true, of course, and it's also kind of obvious.
00:09:20
I think that we tend to get a little bit muddled in execution.
00:09:23
Like, how do we actually get to know them?
00:09:25
And so one of the things that I like to talk about is not just looking at who your audience
00:09:30
is from a geographic or a demographic standpoint, but also You know, and also a psychographic
00:09:35
standpoint, but also, identifying how they are using your products and services, like
00:09:40
truly understanding how they use and and why they use your products and your services.
00:09:47
Figure out the, the actual benefits that they get from it, the frustrations,
00:09:52
maybe that they get from it sometimes.
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How it makes them feel and start your, your content strategy there, like really
00:10:00
hone in on what are all the reasons why or all the problems that we solve?
00:10:06
And how do how do our customers connect with those problems?
00:10:10
What problems aren't we seeing out there that maybe they can that we can solve for
00:10:14
them additionally, so really hone in on that.
00:10:16
So not just really understanding a kind of a general level who we are, who our audience is, but
00:10:22
really drilling into who these people are, how we make them feel, how we can help them even further.
00:10:28
I think all of those areas are so important for us in B2B marketing to understand, but
00:10:34
also it's a great place to look for content ideas for thinking about what can we create
00:10:41
in response to that joy, that pain all of the ways that we fit into their lives.
00:10:48
Michelle J Raymond: I often look at this and think it's going back to the fundamentals
00:10:53
of marketing, which every marketer out there has probably studied for years and
00:10:58
years and got out into the real world.
00:11:00
And then people were throwing stuff at them, left right, and centre going, just get it out.
00:11:04
And it's done, but done to the level where it's it's like, okay.
00:11:08
And so for me, it's about, yeah, like you said, going back to those basics and
00:11:14
understand who are we doing this for?
00:11:16
One other tip that I would give people in the review stage is have a look and see have you
00:11:23
accidentally morphed into your competitors?
00:11:27
And I see this quite often where people start off with doing some research
00:11:31
on what their competitors are doing.
00:11:33
And I focus on LinkedIn Company Pages with this.
00:11:36
And then all of a sudden what happens is the Page that's got the biggest followers,
00:11:40
they must be the best at what they do.
00:11:42
So people subconsciously, I think a lot of the time start to copy or be inspired by I think the
00:11:49
cool kids term for it these days, but they start to accidentally morph into their competitors
00:11:55
and then they lose that piece where they're now different and everything looks the same.
00:12:00
So that would be my one little tip that I would add on to what Ann shared there, because I think
00:12:05
when you have a look, it's best intentions, competitor research can come unstuck so quickly
00:12:12
when we're a time poor and we don't have those strategies and goals like you mentioned.
00:12:16
Ann Handley: What you're saying dovetails really nicely with the research that
00:12:21
we did as well, because then the number two content creation challenge for B2B
00:12:26
marketers is differentiating your content precisely for precisely what you're saying.
00:12:32
We sound just like everybody else.
00:12:34
And I think that's something that that's always been a struggle in B2B marketing.
00:12:38
I think it's even more acute on social media when it's so clear sort
00:12:42
of how people are communicating.
00:12:44
There's a trend now where, oh, we've got to, you know, post on social media
00:12:47
in all lower case so Gen Z likes us.
00:12:50
And it's like, that's okay.
00:12:52
Like in a way it's fine, but it's also really not you.
00:12:55
If, If that's not your brand, if that's not your personality, then it's, you know,
00:12:59
it's, you don't, you don't need to do that just so you can sound like everybody else.
00:13:03
Michelle J Raymond: Yeah.
00:13:03
It's kind of funny what becomes on trend versus way off brand, you know, and fine
00:13:09
line that I know people are trying to juggle.
00:13:11
Now I was trying to narrow down the billions of questions that I
00:13:15
wanted to ask you for this podcast.
00:13:17
And I was doing my research on your website and one of your keynotes
00:13:21
talks about spectacular content.
00:13:24
And I was like, yes, spectacular content.
00:13:27
But what makes spectacular content in your eyes?
00:13:32
Ann Handley: That's such a good question.
00:13:34
There's not one thing that, you know, I can't give you a like a Mad Libs prescription and
00:13:39
say, here, just do this with this amount of emotion and it'll produce spectacular results.
00:13:45
It's not quite that simple.
00:13:47
I wish it was, but in my mind, the best content, the most spectacular content makes
00:13:54
people feel something about your brand.
00:13:57
It makes people feel something about the people who work at your brand.
00:14:01
I will tend to open up something in my email when it's from a brand that I feel something
00:14:07
for and that's such a it's such an easy thing to say, but in a lot of ways, it's
00:14:11
really hard to create that sort of emotional connection, especially in the B2B space.
00:14:17
But I think it's so critical.
00:14:18
And when I look across everything that I love, all the content programs out there that I
00:14:24
love, they have always made me feel something.
00:14:27
Sometimes it's outrage.
00:14:28
Sometimes it's made me laugh.
00:14:29
Sometimes it's just made me feel seen.
00:14:32
I feel like they understand my problems.
00:14:34
And so all of those things, I think, make me connect to a brand.
00:14:39
And that's really what starts to build that emotional connection with a brand.
00:14:43
And that will, you're well on your way to creating some kind of spectacular content at that point.
00:14:48
And look, it's really hard to write a spectacular blog post, right?
00:14:53
It's not about just one, you know, one and done.
00:14:56
Instead, It's, it's an iterative approach.
00:14:58
It's over time where, where you're showing up on social media or how you're
00:15:03
showing up on social media is very much reflective of who you are and your website.
00:15:07
And it's very much reflective of what your email newsletter tone of voice sounds like.
00:15:12
It's all part of the same continuum.
00:15:14
Yes, it's about emotion, but it's also about thinking through all of those opportunities
00:15:19
that you have to connect with an audience.
00:15:22
And that's so critical here in 2024, heading into 2025 in just a few short weeks.
00:15:29
Because unlike a few years ago, where it felt like that customer journey was a very
00:15:35
straightforward, Thing right where somebody would say, download a guide or read a blog post
00:15:41
and then sign up for your email newsletter.
00:15:43
And then they get the thing, the guide, the email newsletter, and
00:15:46
they're like, Oh my God, I love this.
00:15:47
I want more of this.
00:15:48
I got to hear from these people.
00:15:49
And then next step is like, cha ching, like they're going to buy.
00:15:52
Or they're going to reach out for a demo?
00:15:54
And it doesn't work that way anymore.
00:15:56
It's not a straight line.
00:15:57
It's not a straight path.
00:15:59
Now it's kind of like a um, like a crime scene murder board, where there's like,
00:16:04
Michelle J Raymond: Got the string out.
00:16:05
Ann Handley: yeah, there's all these things going on, it's it's like Carrie
00:16:08
Mathison in Homeland, trying to like, talking Saul, trying to figure it out.
00:16:12
It's impossible.
00:16:14
And In some ways that's really crazy, like it's very difficult, but on the other hand, I think
00:16:20
that the imperative becomes making sure that you're showing up along the way as the same, with
00:16:26
the same tone of voice, in other words, making it clear that this could only come from us.
00:16:30
And this is absolutely us.
00:16:31
Yeah, it's a little bit disheartening, but I also think that there's an opportunity
00:16:35
there to align all of your content assets to make sure that that crazy journey while
00:16:40
you may not be able to track it as neatly as we were once able to but you can still from
00:16:46
your customers standpoint, they can still recognise where they are and that you are you.
00:16:52
Michelle J Raymond: If you've ever followed along the work that the team at Dream Data
00:16:56
do, they do a lot of that tracking and, the digital tracking in the background
00:17:01
and they show exactly how messy this is.
00:17:03
Clicked on a website, then went back to social, spoke to someone here, downloaded
00:17:07
something, and then, the average B2B life cycle for sales cycle for them that they
00:17:12
found in their research was something,
00:17:13
you know, it's almost 18 months at the end of the day.
00:17:16
And so there's lots of different touch points all over the place that people are at.
00:17:20
But, Ann there's something that you do, which I think is part of your magic
00:17:25
that I think other people struggle with.
00:17:28
When I read your content, whether it's your fabulous newsletter or your LinkedIn
00:17:32
posts, I feel like I know you and that we're almost like we're friends, but at
00:17:39
the same time, you're not an oversharer.
00:17:42
And there's kind of like a distance as well.
00:17:44
Like you're still the professional, you're still the expert.
00:17:48
Is that something you do deliberately and can brands do something similar?
00:17:53
Or is it more individuals that we can connect with on that personal level?
00:17:56
Because I think part of the appeal.
00:17:58
I'm like, I know about your dog.
00:18:00
I know that you work in your little office.
00:18:02
Like, you know, And I know things that you do, but at the same time.
00:18:06
Yeah, it's like this kind of semi distance.
00:18:10
It's like, no, it's not my personal life, but here's the stories that are part of my world.
00:18:15
I just like to learn a bit more about that.
00:18:18
Ann Handley: Yeah.
00:18:19
That's interesting.
00:18:20
Let's see.
00:18:20
So I guess to answer the second part of that.
00:18:22
Is it deliberate?
00:18:23
Yes, it is very much deliberate.
00:18:25
I think that there is a major difference between being personable on LinkedIn
00:18:32
and being personal on LinkedIn.
00:18:34
Personable is knowing that I'm working in my tiny house studio right now.
00:18:39
It's knowing that my dog Augie is right here.
00:18:42
It's knowing that I am excellent with Sharpies.
00:18:46
How excellent you might wonder that I was able to do this
00:18:51
Michelle J Raymond: Oh, I love Michelle.
00:18:53
Oh my God.
00:18:55
yeah, I just, No, the show's done.
00:18:57
We can Like, Sorry, marketers.
00:19:00
My moment has just been made.
00:19:03
Ann Handley: I feel like you need.
00:19:04
This can be your new LinkedIn Profile.
00:19:06
Michelle J Raymond: That's my bAnnr banner.
00:19:07
That's my new banner that's coming up.
00:19:09
So for those of you who'll be listening to this later, Ann is holding up a
00:19:12
sign that says, I heart Michelle.
00:19:14
My, my work here is done.
00:19:17
I'm sidetracked.
00:19:18
Forget it.
00:19:18
It's game over.
00:19:19
Ann Handley: Oh my goodness.
00:19:20
Michelle J Raymond: Where were we?
00:19:21
Personal versus personable.
00:19:23
Ann Handley: So you know, I'm excellent with Sharpies.
00:19:25
That's, that is, it's not calculated as much as it is what I'm comfortable with.
00:19:30
And I know where that boundary is for me.
00:19:32
And I think that everybody needs to make their own call on, you know, what they're comfortable with.
00:19:36
For some people, it may be a little bit further than it is for me.
00:19:40
In my mind, I don't think people really care about, you know, my personal life,
00:19:45
but I think that me as a personable person?
00:19:49
I think that's imperative.
00:19:50
I think we all need to be that way in in in modern marketing.
00:19:54
It's funny, though, just as a quick aside.
00:19:56
I feel like that line has gotten very blurry between the personal and the
00:20:00
personable on LinkedIn specifically.
00:20:03
10 years ago, LinkedIn was never felt like a dating site, but sometimes it is.
00:20:08
And sometimes there's like, I look at it and I'm thinking, wait, did I
00:20:10
accidentally wander into Facebook?
00:20:12
Like, What is going on here?
00:20:15
So I think we, we see some of that.
00:20:17
And that's because Everybody makes their own choice about where that line between
00:20:21
the personable and the personal is for them.
00:20:23
But for me, it's definitely more in the, you know, is this something my audience can relate to?
00:20:28
Is this something that I want to share in a way that I feel will connect with those around me?
00:20:34
And that's just, you know, very simply how I, I make those calls.
00:20:38
I want to show up in a way that feels unique and different.
00:20:41
When you read one of my posts on LinkedIn, if you didn't notice that I was the one who wrote it, if
00:20:47
you were to cover up my face and you didn't see the attribution, could you tell it was from me?
00:20:54
My hope would be yes, because of the way that I write it.
00:20:58
And so I think coming up with your own voice, your way of communicating is so critical
00:21:05
on, not just on LinkedIn, but throughout marketing, but especially on social media
00:21:08
where your face is literally attached to what you're posting and what's going on.
00:21:14
And so should, you know, can others replicate that?
00:21:17
I think was your question.
00:21:18
And yes, absolutely.
00:21:19
You, You 100 percent should.
00:21:22
And again, the line is going to be different for you, but I think always
00:21:26
think about in service to your audience, which is always in the back of my brain.
00:21:30
When I write anything, I workshop it.
00:21:33
I don't just throw a post up there.
00:21:35
Like I know some people do.
00:21:36
I don't because I don't want to waste people's time.
00:21:39
I want to make sure that what I offer has value.
00:21:42
I don't want to just share because it feeds my ego or it makes me feel good.
00:21:46
I want it to have some relevance and something that will resonate with the audience.
00:21:51
And so why do I care about that?
00:21:53
Because I care about the audience and serving them.
00:21:55
But I also care about growing as a professional, growing my profile as a thought leader,
00:21:59
growing Marketing Profs's always a hard one to
00:22:04
Michelle J Raymond: No one thought that one did they?
00:22:05
Ann Handley: Marketing Profs's.
00:22:07
No, you can't even imagine the conversations we have internally.
00:22:09
I will spare you.
00:22:11
Marketing Profs's profile.
00:22:13
There we go.
00:22:13
Got it out.
00:22:14
So I want to do all of those things.
00:22:16
And so for me, the way to do that, and I think that what's true for anybody is
00:22:20
to think about, How can I be inherently personable without being personal?
00:22:25
Because again, this isn't Facebook.
00:22:27
So yeah, in terms of brands though, and maybe you have a different perspective
00:22:30
on this Michelle, so respectfully you should, you and I should talk about this.
00:22:35
Cause I think it's a really good conversation to have.
00:22:38
I am not so convinced that brands can do it as easily as the thought leaders, the
00:22:44
founders, the subject matter experts.
00:22:47
The person who works in marketing who happens to be really good on camera, or the person who
00:22:52
works in marketing who is a very good writer.
00:22:54
I think all of those kinds of kinds of demonstrations of brand
00:23:00
personability are so critical.
00:23:03
I have a harder time when it's just the brand itself.
00:23:05
Now, I'm not saying that it can't be done, but in my mind, when I think about a
00:23:10
brand that I love on social media, I think about the people and I see their faces.
00:23:15
I don't see the logo.
00:23:16
Do you know what I mean?
00:23:17
So just never give you a really quick example.
00:23:19
So Click Up here on LinkedIn.
00:23:21
I don't know if you're familiar with their work.
00:23:24
But you are?
00:23:25
Michelle J Raymond: Yes.
00:23:25
Ann Handley: They do an incredible job.
00:23:27
They're amazing on their LinkedIn video is funny.
00:23:30
It's relatable, it's personable.
00:23:33
It's just really and you can tell that they have developed it with their personas
00:23:36
in mind that they're very much looking to connect emotionally with an audience.
00:23:41
They're also on TikTok as well as some other social platforms, but to focus specifically
00:23:45
on LinkedIn, cause that's where we are.
00:23:48
That's what we're talking about.
00:23:49
I think they do a tremendous job with it.
00:23:51
When I think about ClickUp's social strategy, I think about their guy Luke,
00:23:57
who is the front man for a lot of their video, and I think of their founder.
00:24:02
It's like, I think of those two people.
00:24:04
I think you've got to involve your people, and it can't just be leaving it up to them and say,
00:24:08
yeah, go out there and be social and post here.
00:24:10
Here's some pre written posts that we've created for you.
00:24:14
Just go out and amplify them.
00:24:15
I think you've got to involve them at a much more significant and important way.
00:24:19
Michelle J Raymond: Yes.
00:24:20
Look, no arguments for me.
00:24:22
It is definitely harder.
00:24:23
And I don't think a lot of people or a lot of brands put that much effort into upfront
00:24:29
planning, before they start just posting.
00:24:31
And so, you know, I talk about Page Advocacy.
00:24:34
How can the brand lift up those employees and you know, just a simple change can be saying
00:24:42
no to stock photos for the love of whatever you believe in, please, no more stock images.
00:24:49
You have a team full of people.
00:24:51
The difference you can make with having exactly the same copy that just has a
00:24:56
photo of your people instead of a stock image, it will be a scroll stopper in a
00:25:00
heartbeat because we want to be connected.
00:25:03
We want to know who's behind the scenes, and so this is the thing that I would say
00:25:07
to people is, Take the best of what works personally and bring it over onto the brand
00:25:12
and you know, use it as a tool to say, Hey, these are the people behind what you're going
00:25:17
to end up buying, and these are the experts.
00:25:20
Position them as those thought leaders back it up.
00:25:23
Nothing says, Real thought leader then when your brand actually stands there and
00:25:27
goes, yep, this person's the real deal, rolling out the red carpet, putting them
00:25:32
on a pedestal and saying, yes, this is the person that's the expert in our business.
00:25:36
They feel ten foot tall.
00:25:38
Your brand then goes oh, hang on a minute.
00:25:42
Now everyone sees the brand positively because, Hey, you respect the people that
00:25:45
work there and you'll attract even better talent, because there's lots of different
00:25:50
ways that content's used for brands.
00:25:53
Some of it is yes.
00:25:55
About, I guess, selling, you know, that is part of it, but there's another part of how do you get
00:25:59
the best of the best to come and work for you.
00:26:01
And so there's a couple of different balances that we've got in there, but Ann I think there's
00:26:08
like something that when I'm working with clients.
00:26:11
They feel like they're coming up against a brick wall and maybe can jump
00:26:15
over it, go around it underneath it, you know, break straight through it.
00:26:18
But we talk so easily about being unique and having your own tone of voice and,
00:26:26
your own perspective with your content.
00:26:28
And, you know, often people say it's easy for you, Michelle.
00:26:31
It's just your business.
00:26:32
You can do whatever you want, but we're part of a bigger organisation.
00:26:37
And it feels scary to be different.
00:26:41
What can you give to the marketers that might be listening, going, yeah, I want to be
00:26:46
different with the brand, but my leaders in the business, they're not entirely convinced
00:26:51
that this is a great idea by being different.
00:26:55
How can we give them some advice that would help them to try these new things
00:26:58
and get it across the line internally?
00:27:01
Ann Handley: You mean in terms of tone of voice or in of anything?
00:27:04
Michelle J Raymond: Just trying something different.
00:27:06
It could be tone of voice.
00:27:07
It could be the style of content could be the language they use, just trying
00:27:12
something that goes beyond average and into that spectacular content category.
00:27:17
Ann Handley: Yeah.
00:27:17
I know.
00:27:18
I mean, This is a, this has been a problem in content marketing since, oh my gosh, since It's
00:27:24
probably my first book and maybe even before that.
00:27:28
So that would be like 2010.
00:27:29
That's how insane it is and how long this has been going on.
00:27:33
So yeah, I mean, I think getting executive buy in for anything that is outside the
00:27:37
norm is going to it's going to be difficult, but to find that champion in the C suite or
00:27:43
to find that champion internally who will help you get this over the finish line.
00:27:48
I think you've just got to frame it in terms of what is this going to do for the business?
00:27:52
Very simply, if we show up this way, what could it do for us?
00:27:57
What is the potential of maybe not being differentiated?
00:28:01
42 percent of marketers are having trouble creating differentiated content, right?
00:28:06
So what is the opportunity there and what is the opportunity we lose if we
00:28:10
don't experiment and try something?
00:28:13
I'm pretty sure that, you know, the, the ClickUp executive team weren't sitting
00:28:17
around thinking this feels risky to, you know, to start uh, to start a TikTok and to port
00:28:23
some of those videos over to, to LinkedIn.
00:28:26
I think it's always about experimenting and iterating and
00:28:30
that's what makes marketing wonderful.
00:28:32
Isn't it?
00:28:33
I mean.
00:28:34
It's a differentiator from any, anything else at the, you know, at the C suite level.
00:28:40
It's a differentiator from operations and from finance because it is an area where
00:28:44
we can experiment and try new things.
00:28:46
And so I think it's just important for you to frame it in terms of what the opportunity
00:28:50
is for the business based on what are your goals for an upcoming year, what are
00:28:56
you trying to accomplish, and then show how content can help advance those goals.
00:29:01
It's hard, but it's also simple at the same time.
00:29:04
Michelle J Raymond: Yeah, if in doubt, just look at what everyone else is
00:29:07
doing and maybe go the opposite.
00:29:08
Zig when they zag or be contrarian, like just try it.
00:29:12
You know, one post will not kill your brand.
00:29:14
I think the experimenting is the part that I hope as listeners, Join us in this conversation,
00:29:21
that's the part that I want them to think about.
00:29:23
What could we try that we haven't tried before and just see what lands or what doesn't land?
00:29:28
Because the fact is you'll never know unless you try.
00:29:31
Ann Handley: I had a great.
00:29:32
Yep.
00:29:32
Sorry.
00:29:32
I got excited.
00:29:33
Michelle J Raymond: No, it's okay.
00:29:34
Go for it.
00:29:35
Go for it.
00:29:39
Ann Handley: I already confessed this, so you have give me a little leeway
00:29:42
Michelle J Raymond: The I love Michelle sign is back up again.
00:29:43
Ann Handley: I'm gonna pull this out.
00:29:44
Every time I, I start talking over you, but you know where my heart is.
00:29:48
Michelle J Raymond: You win.
00:29:51
Ann Handley: I had a, What I was going to say is I had a conversation with with Chris Savage
00:29:55
at Wistia not too long ago, and Wistia does a lot of great things with their marketing.
00:30:02
But one of the things he told me is that they do a lot of small experiments, tiny experiments to
00:30:08
see what will start to get traction and what will resonate and then that they take that little they
00:30:14
figure out like ahead of time Without putting a lot of budget towards something what will work
00:30:19
and then they amplify it from there So I think you know don't commit a ton of budget to something
00:30:24
don't commit a hundred thousand dollars to Producing a video that you're not sure will work
00:30:29
like obviously, but I think just try some tiny experiments and see what will potentially pop.
00:30:34
I have been in marketing for ever, right?
00:30:37
It's for a very long time.
00:30:38
And even I have a really hard time predicting exactly what will pop
00:30:42
because, you don't know until you try it.
00:30:44
Like you just said, audiences are always shifting.
00:30:46
Expectations are shifting, culture shifts.
00:30:49
And so what people will grab on to what will touch them is going to be a little bit different every
00:30:55
single time and again That's what I love about it.
00:30:57
That's the opportunity.
00:30:58
It can be a challenge, but I think it's one that's worth taking
00:31:03
Michelle J Raymond: Yeah, absolutely.
00:31:04
Now, you know, that I could talk to you all day and I promised you that I would try and
00:31:09
keep this thing on time, which I'm almost there, but I have one last question for
00:31:13
you, if we're looking into content marketing for 2025, what do you want to see more of,
00:31:21
and what would you like to see less of?
00:31:23
Ann Handley: Hmm That's great.
00:31:25
I would like to see Well, it's a little bit of a different answer, I guess.
00:31:29
I want to see more women step on stages I think there are a lot of incredibly talented and
00:31:37
just women who blow me away in, in marketing.
00:31:40
And I want to see more of that.
00:31:44
I've been to lots of events recently where I've seen, the next generation of
00:31:48
marketers and, women stepping onto stages, sharing their voice, sharing their stories.
00:31:53
And I cannot tell you how it does my heart good.
00:31:57
Like I want to see more and more of that because like it's about time.
00:32:00
It's so funny to me that, you know, you started our conversation about how you stumbled
00:32:04
into me, like that should not be happening.
00:32:06
And God, I hope that doesn't happen anymore and especially not in 2025 and beyond.
00:32:12
So yeah, raising up women, encouraging them to step on stages.
00:32:16
It is just so important.
00:32:17
So that's the first thing I would say.
00:32:19
Less of what do I want to see less of?
00:32:21
I think a lot of things we've talked about already.
00:32:23
I think we want to see the end of, I want this chart to look very different next year.
00:32:27
And now that there we go, I want this chart to look very different next year.
00:32:30
I want to see this 58%.
00:32:32
I don't want it to be that thing.
00:32:33
I want I want it to swap places.
00:32:36
With the extremely and the very, I want it to be just a whole different chart.
00:32:40
So my hope is that we just accomplished that in the past, what, 25, 30 minutes together.
00:32:46
Michelle J Raymond: I hope so.
00:32:47
And do you realise listeners that we've just spoken to Ann Handley for 30 odd minutes
00:32:53
and the words AI have not come up once about what you need to improve your content.
00:32:59
Ann Handley: Wow.
00:32:59
Michelle J Raymond: So I think there's something in that if you have been paying attention the
00:33:02
whole way through, I think there are so many cool things that have been shared today about
00:33:07
getting back to that strategy, getting back to being in service of your ideal customer.
00:33:12
Getting, you know, getting back involved in what is that actual buyer's journey,
00:33:17
that messy buyer's journey that Ann shared about, and having a look at going, how
00:33:21
can we bring emotions into our content?
00:33:24
And all of this you can do with pretty much zero budget.
00:33:28
So there really is no excuses for making this happen.
00:33:31
This is a mind shift change.
00:33:33
I think more than anything about going back and saying, We want to make spectacular
00:33:39
content and maybe we drop how much content we're making and improve that quality and
00:33:45
drop the quantity and stop trying to be everywhere and keeping up with everything.
00:33:49
I think it's impossible and marketers out there are burning out.
00:33:53
I read a stat that really blew me away that said content marketers are spending
00:33:58
almost 33 hours creating content a week.
00:34:02
And I was thinking that's without having meetings, that's without having lunches,
00:34:07
lives, all the other strategy stuff.
00:34:10
That's why we can't get back to this spectacular content.
00:34:13
So we need have a look at the basics and make time for this.
00:34:17
And maybe that time comes from not creating as much average content and
00:34:22
saying hello to spectacular content.
00:34:24
And I'm going to wrap it up.
00:34:25
Is there anything else, one last final tip that you want to share with people
00:34:29
and yeah, just to inspire them for 2025.
00:34:33
Ann Handley: Oh year.
00:34:33
I mean, I think the only other thing I would say is, you know, don't fall for, for hacks.
00:34:38
Don't fall for shortcuts.
00:34:39
There is no shortcut.
00:34:40
Customer relationships take time, and that's just part of the journey.
00:34:44
That's what we signed up for.
00:34:46
Michelle, you're delightful.
00:34:47
Thank you so much for having me.
00:34:49
Michelle J Raymond: Can you hold the sign up one more time?
00:34:55
Going to, that's going to be the screenshot, like that's to be everywhere, so stay tuned listeners.
00:35:00
You will, if you're following my content, you are going to see Ann Handley tagged
00:35:03
a billion times over the next year.
00:35:06
Ann Handley: I love it.
00:35:07
Michelle J Raymond: Ann this conversation definitely is everything that I hoped it would be.
00:35:11
I appreciate you giving up your precious time.
00:35:13
Thank you for being that person that inspires people like me to be on those stages and be better
00:35:19
at the craft and share our messages because.
00:35:21
You're right.
00:35:22
There is not a lot of people out there that are leading the way.
00:35:25
So thank you for being that person.
00:35:27
Thank you for everything you do to give back to other people and support them.
00:35:30
I appreciate you and a happy Thanksgiving to you.
00:35:34
Ann Handley: Yes.
00:35:35
All right.
00:35:35
We'll talk soon.
00:35:36
Michelle J Raymond: All right, listeners, until next week, cheers.
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