Going From Bland to Demand - Tips to Stay Top of Mind with Ali Schwanke

TRANSCRIPT

Michelle J Raymond: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to the LinkedIn for B2B Growth Show. I'm your host, Michelle J Raymond. And this week, Ali, you are joining me because I want to stop our audience from being so bland that no one knows they exist to turning them into demand. And you are the person that I wanted to have on the show. So welcome.

Ali Schwanke: Thanks for having me. This is a spicy conversation. I'm ready to dig in.

Michelle J Raymond: It is. I like a little bit of spice because I think what's happening is when I scroll my feed on LinkedIn, I'm seeing so much information on how to create the world's best call to action or hooks or, you know, and it's all focused on content.

And I think people are missing the point about what it takes to stay top of mind. And mostly when I pick guests for the podcast, it's because I've seen some content that I'm like, Yes, high fiving. And yours was speaking to me on this topic, but what do you think makes it difficult for most people when it comes to standing out on LinkedIn?

Like why are they hiding in the [00:01:00] shadows?

Ali Schwanke: We always at our agency talk about this thing called the LinkedIn lurkers. And how do you go from being a LinkedIn lurker to a LinkedIn, like activator. And there's two fundamental challenges people have. One is, what the heck do I say?

And so we'll come back to that. But the second then is Ali, I've said some stuff and nobody likes it. Nobody follows me. Nothing's happening like crickets. And so I think you first like, you've gotta figure out like where you are in that spectrum.

But if you do number two, then you might think you know what? I just can't figure this out. Then it's just this like black box to me. So I think those two issues are actually like the root cause of what we're after.

Michelle J Raymond: I think they really are. So I think, is it because you don't know what to say is one piece, but I'd actually go as far as most of the clients that I end up working with they're petrified of LinkedIn.

They are so fearful of what other people will say about what they put out there. What are they going to judge me? I'm not a good writer. Maybe this has all been said before. Maybe English is a second language. [00:02:00] Like it can be so many different things. What if I lose my job, if I write the wrong thing? Like people, turn this into a big catastrophe about what might happen if they put themselves out there.

And so for me, I often have these conversations about what is it that's holding you back? Now I've found that they have a specific fear around LinkedIn, whereas they might be really active on TikTok or Instagram. Thriving, but come to LinkedIn and freak out. Do you notice that with the clients that you work with as well?

Ali Schwanke: Yeah. What's really funny is whether we're talking about clients or even like folks that I have conversations with over on Twitter. They're like, Oh, I'm super, I'm like really in on Twitter but LinkedIn scares the crap out of me, or LinkedIn is so cringy. And first thing, what I always trying to have people think about is LinkedIn is the biggest networking trade show on earth that's going on 24/7.

So if you can visibly think about yourself at a trade show and you're in a corner with your head down on your phone, Okay? How effective are you going to be on LinkedIn if that's like visually [00:03:00] what you're doing? You're just sitting in the corner watching people walk by and then you're going I should be getting more from this trade show, but i'm just not getting anything, right?

Second thing it's not about you. I mean, I think that's the biggest thing to remember is when you're on these platforms It's not about you. Like at the end of the day you have results you need to get stuff But you know you get what you put into it and it's about the people you can help.

So just like any marketing challenge What are they dealing with? Who do they go to help? And quite frankly, I heard this the other day. What is the silent conversation going on in their brain right now? And how can you tap into that silent conversation so that they go, I was just thinking about this or, wow, that's interesting. And if you think you have a non interesting business, I'll just tell you, you haven't truly got into their brain because everything is interesting. Everything.

Michelle J Raymond: And I think that's where we forget what it's like to be a beginner. We are experts in whatever relevant field and we forget what it's like for people starting out. And the other thing is if you are just starting out, then share about what it's like for you starting out because there are other people that aren't willing to [00:04:00] put themselves out there.

Like the stats that I read about these online studies. Just literally anywhere from 97, 99 percent of people will never be active on LinkedIn or social media platforms in general, because of those fears and holding themselves back.

So that is literally 90, let's say 95 plus, let's be a bit conservative are sitting there watching what's going on, never pressing like or comment. And the person that's posting is thinking they've got the problem, because they're sitting there going, why doesn't anyone like me? Why is that person beside me getting way more likes?

And, typically that comparison itis when that kicks in, it just shuts people down in a heartbeat, which is another thing that I want to talk about. But, we're here today to kind of help people see the value of staying top of mind. Because in my mind, if you aren't that you're invisible and if your competitor is, guess who's getting the lion's share of the opportunities? They are. And I don't think we can afford to just let that slide.

But [00:05:00] when it comes to social media, I think one of the things about if we want to go from bland to demand and, stay top of mind, like we're talking about today is that we have to try and stay focused on social media. Now you and I, before this show, were having a bit of a giggle about the fact that we have millions of ideas.

Entrepreneurs are full of ideas. Social media full of distractions. It's a bad combo, but why else do you think it's hard to stay focused on social media?

Ali Schwanke: I think cause you don't have necessarily a goal or an initiative in place. I think even as we discuss it here, like I'm going to post three times on LinkedIn.

Okay. That sounds great, but what if you don't even know what to say? So you might need to actually make your goal. I'm going to write three posts in a note this week. that I can then post the following week. So you have to think about the action behind the action that makes that possible. I think that's true of all things in life.

But the other thing that is challenging is if you don't have a goal of interacting, let's [00:06:00] say, Michelle, you want to interact with 10 posts a day. Okay. Go in and interact with 10 and then bounce out. That is your goal for the day. Little tiny efforts then lead up to like, what, 50 interactions a week.

That's huge. If you try to do 50 interactions in a day, guaranteed you're going to get buried, waste time. Like you got to chunk it up and you got to look at it like a, you know, like any sort of business practice.

Michelle J Raymond: I think that's absolutely some advice I want people to take note of. Because there's so much advice out there that it's all about bigger numbers, use an automation tool, reach a thousand people in a day.

And I just cringe and rock in a corner and say to people, how are you going to keep up with that? If you were to get a fraction of those to start responding. How on earth are you going to do it unless you outsource yourself 10 times over?

And so, you know, when it comes to automation tools they really press my buttons, but the thing that I find when I'm talking with people, they're so overwhelmed, Ali, like they are just going, I [00:07:00] can't do this social media stuff. It's too much.

So do you have other little small actions that you think are good on a daily basis that are more manageable that maybe we can let people know, Hey, this is more realistic. Let's, chunk it back down, like you said, but what kinds of things do you think that they could do that's more manageable?

Ali Schwanke: Yeah, I think first of all, the mindset that I love to share with people is think about LinkedIn, like a relationship piggy bank. And it's, you're constantly building your savings there so that you're able to cash in at some point and buy something. And most people are approaching it as I did X, Y, Z, and I haven't got any leads from it.

Or I want to do a bunch of like direct, message campaigns and see if anyone wants to meet with me. That just doesn't work like that formula by and large for most industries, I will argue does not work. But the other thing you can think about is what are some things that people already asked me about that I can very easily, pretend your LinkedIn is a cup of coffee.

If Michelle, you asked me, what are the five questions or two questions people always ask you, I could tell you what those are. [00:08:00] I think we have to remember that we're giving, we're giving small bits of wisdom to the marketplace.

And then if you analyze how that goes, you will naturally, like you could post the same thing every once a month. And quite frankly, social goes so fast, no one would probably realize you're doing it.

Michelle J Raymond: I read some stats as part of some research for a presentation I'm doing. And it's something like we scroll and I'm going to use your measurements.

It's 300 feet per day on social media, which is the height of the statue of liberty. I think is what this thing was telling me, but we're doing that much, and also at a speed that was crazy. It was, five seconds where, you know, scrolling 50 times or whatever. Like I don't remember the exact numbers, but the speed of which we do it and the volume at which we do it, if you think people will notice what you posted today and remember it in another 30 days, I wish it was that easy.

I wouldn't have a business if it was that easy because people would be like post, Oh, it goes to everyone. And they all remember, and they're all paying attention.[00:09:00] Yeah, no. It's just not that easy.

Ali Schwanke: Yeah. I think your point is valid and that is, okay, here's the reality of what we live in. You can either accept the fact that we need to have thumb stopping behavior, or you can, be a curmudgeon in the corner that's like, this doesn't work like it used to when I was growing up.

You risk looking like that person in business when you don't accept the modern realities of how we discover information. And we discover information in three ways on social. One, someone shares it or likes it in our network. If you shared a post or liked it, it would be like, Oh, Michelle likes this.

And then I'm like, Oh, what's this? And so it gives social proof that it's something valuable because already my friend, Michelle likes it. Or we get directly tagged, from a company or something of that nature. And then the third is this literally the scroll stopping behavior. And that is like interesting picture, interesting cook that has a thousand comments, someone must really like that.

Those are psychological behaviors we have to learn how to speak the language, per se.

Michelle J Raymond: Yeah. And I think staying top of mind can be content. It can be sending direct messages. It can be [00:10:00] commenting. There are so many different ways that we can do these kind of actions to stay top of mind. So if you are someone that's sitting there going, You know what?

I'm not quite ready to be putting myself out there with content. There is nothing stopping you from sending a message to somebody and saying, Hey, just thinking of you haven't seen you on the platform for a while. Hey, are you going to this event?

And if I think about, you know, I spent 20 years in B2B sales. Relationship building, wasn't just, I walked into the door once shook hands. Hi, I'm Michelle buy my stuff, disappeared and never spoke to them again. No. Even as part of my KPIs, were staying in touch with people monthly to make sure that they knew that I was available. And as you said, to be of service, what problem are you having that I can solve?

And I think if you go into LinkedIn with that mindset, it can be so much more fun rather than those people that hate sales. Don't want to be salesy as I hear all the time. And I'm like. Yeah, but if you don't [00:11:00] be salesy, you're not going to have sales and you won't have a business, so it presses my button. I understand the point behind it, but what's happening is people are just holding themselves way back, not making any contact at all in any way, shape or form, and then going. Oh, I don't have any leads for my business.

How's that working out for you? That is more stressful than reaching out to someone and saying, Hey, how's it going? It doesn't have to be much more than that, but what are the most common mistakes that you see when it comes to standing out and being top of mind?

Ali Schwanke: Yeah, when you're top of mind, you have to have crystal clear direction on what value you provide and how people think of that. So take us to, let's say buying a car. If I said, Hey, what are the top five car brands you'd consider? You'd be able to ramble off to me, five that come to mind. And so that exists for any category on the planet and depending on how specific you get.

So if someone says I need a company or someone to help me grow my LinkedIn success, boom, that's where you position [00:12:00] yourself. I need someone to help grow and get more effective results on HubSpot. Boom. That's where I positioned our company and our success. But that comes because 90 percent of the content that I post on LinkedIn is about HubSpot or problems around HubSpot or funny things around HubSpot or events around HubSpot.

So It might seem Oh, I'm so limited in what I can talk about, but to be top of mind, you have to stay in a lane. And actually the best thing about staying in a lane is you can be more creative when you know where the parameters of the box are. So now I've got, how do I make HubSpot product updates Interesting? How do I make HubSpot events Interesting? How do I do webinars?

So top of mind has to be specificity. And your willingness to choose a specificity will either make or break your strategy.

Michelle J Raymond: I think you're absolutely right. And for those listeners who use HubSpot, I'm going to make sure I put all of Ali's details in the show notes, go and check it out, especially her YouTube channel with all its tutorials.

It's the unofficial HubSpot place to go for uh, tutorials on how to get more out of it. So make sure that we've got that there, but ultimately I [00:13:00] think as well that people underestimate or just get stuck in their own little box in their own little minds. And they underestimate what a difference they make to other people by putting themselves out there.

And I think they think that it's just about showing off. Or trying to be attention seeking, and that's not what we're talking about here today. And I've got a bit of a spicy question at the end, which I've left to last, but there's a difference between standing out and being top of mind and being known for something like you said, to being an attention seeker, that's not what we're talking about here today.

But for me, I think the mistakes that I see is people underestimate the value that they bring to other people, which is why they keep themselves small. They also underestimate the amount of effort that it does take to be consistent. But my favorite word is more persistent. Like how do you do these actions over a long period? [00:14:00] Because this isn't something that it's not a 30 day sprint. There is no finish line.

As long as you have a business that you're trying to use, like these social media tools to stay top of mind, you are going to have to take actions to stay top of mind and, with a billion people on LinkedIn specifically, we just ticked over that number towards the end of last year.

All the other platforms have even more numbers than that, then what we're looking at is how do you be that person that stands out, and I think there's a place for everyone. It might sound funny to say, Oh, but you just said there's a billion people on the platform. And then I said, there's a place for you.

Why? Because we're all so unique. And I think that's the message that I like to try and convey to people is. Everybody is so different. Like it doesn't matter even if we talk about the same topic, we don't have the same experience, but is there anything else that you wanted to add around some of the common mistakes that you might see around this?

Ali Schwanke: I think you hit the nail on the head that consistency is a, I always [00:15:00] call that the unsexy part of marketing. And so much of our success is actually due to our ability to stay consistent. I'm working on a podcast episode right now about trust and consistency. So I positioned it as this.

Imagine the person that you value and then imagine someone that you don't trust. And if you look at their behavior, typically people we trust have consistent behavior. People that we don't trust are inconsistent. We can't depend on them. We don't know what's gonna happen. They're being shady. And in the absence of a story, people make up their own story.

So if you are consistent on LinkedIn for a month, and then suddenly you fall off the radar and you don't post anymore, the first thing people do is go wait a minute, is she still doing that thing? What's going on with her? Is she at that company anymore? And the last thing you want to do is plant a incorrect story in someone's mind, simply because you gave it a shot and then decided you weren't getting stuff fast enough and you just, bounce to the next idea, which is, it happens all the time.

And I'm going to tell you half of winning is literally just being more persistent than your competition.

Michelle J Raymond: We call that here in Australia, it's the Steven [00:16:00] Bradbury. And what I mean by that, there was the winter Olympics many years ago, probably 20 odd years ago. An Australian speed skater was in a race and everybody else in the race fell over except him. And he came through and scooped the gold medal.

And so in Australia, it's be the Steven Bradbury. Do not give up. Just keep going. Cause you don't know who's going to fall over. For me, it is often not the best person, but the person that does show up consistently and, you know, I'm working with a couple of clients and one in particular at the moment is we've had to put in some accountability sessions to catch up once a month.

Because what happens is when I went back and had a look at what she'd been creating, it was spike. Oh, what you wanted something from your audience disappear spike of activity disappear. And I was like, so every time you want something, you show up. But you don't offer value in the meantime and stay top of mind.

And, this is what we're trying to address that consistency of [00:17:00] don't ever disappear out of sight, out of mind. And, it's so hard to remember and recall people and their businesses and what they do so that whoever is that one that's always there, that's where I'm going to.

And I have it happen all the time, Ali, but I don't know if you can relate, but sometimes when you're like, yeah I know that person, they do something like, what's their name? Oh my God. I haven't seen him for ages. And your brain is like trying to recall, but we are just bombarded with information. So don't slip out of mind.

I think that's, such an important message here because it means that when you come on and sure you might write a great post with a great hook or, it might be technically a great copywriting or something like that.

But if you just are a one hit wonder that pops up from time to time, I'm going to say no one really cares. Why? Because you don't care about your audience. It's all about me in that perspective.

When people are starting out what do you think is a realistic timeframe to start [00:18:00] seeing results from taking action?

Because you're right. You mentioned it earlier sometimes what happens is, okay, Michelle and Ali, I'm going to get active on LinkedIn or insert whichever social media platform and they go out. And then nothing happens, no one comments, no one likes, and they give up. But how long do you think this kind of process takes to start seeing results?

Ali Schwanke: Yeah. With folks that we've worked with, we can see results in as soon as two weeks, if they're diligent and consistent about it. I'll say the time, the little bit of caveat in there is, who is your audience already on LinkedIn? And are they the appropriate people you're writing for? So for example, there's a situation we found this last week where the person was hoping to get more of views on their content, but they're writing about a very specific industry and only a hundred of their overall 5,000 followers are in that industry.

Okay. So we're going to have to actually do a connection campaign to get some more folks to follow you as you create this content. And you're going to have to scale those two numbers [00:19:00] together Otherwise you're just going to create more content where, it's not resonating with the audience that already follows you.

So there are some little pieces there that you have to fit the puzzle together in order for that to work.

Michelle J Raymond: Yeah, absolutely. And it can take much longer and this is what I say to clients. I can lay out everything for you and give you the world's best strategy. But if you get busy on that day or I don't have time or I'm distracted or I'm not focused and you don't take those actions that have been laid out, then this thing may never happen, you know, or it may take months.

I know on LinkedIn, it's getting harder and harder to get say organic reach. So what that means is if you put a post out there, LinkedIn's not showing it to as many people as what they were, even just compared to middle of last year.

And, even for me, I've spent a bit of time towards the end of last year going. Hello? Is this microphone on? What has happened? My numbers probably halved if I look at it and I've been creating on LinkedIn for 10 years, my numbers are pretty consistent. I'm not necessarily focused on them, [00:20:00] but it literally halved and I was not really changing anything.

Now, If that half is like a more quality half, then that's great. But I have no insight into how that's working, but like you said, that's the rules of the game. That's how this platform works. So we have to take more actions, you know, and take things back into our own hands. And, this is where I think the rise of direct messaging. Strategically and thoughtfully will come into play coming into this year because you can do that.

You can go and comment. You can go and invite people to your events. There's lots of different ways to do things. But I think to give yourself the time up front to see results rather than instant gratification. That is not what this social thing is all about anymore. Those glory days are long gone.

Ali Schwanke: Yeah. I mean, It does apply just like we talked about in previous conversations about marketing and sales funnels, where if you don't have anybody coming into the top of your funnel, nothing really can shake out at the bottom. So if you haven't thought about [00:21:00] how you're going to build those relationships so that they eventually want to interact with you, I'd say for folks that are scared to get started, create just a commenting strategy.

Just go in and comment on three posts a day, earn the right to have someone want to listen to you. Cause otherwise I think the backwards way I like to think about it is imagine going to a party. Nobody knows who you are. You jump up on a table and you start yelling things at people that they need to listen and respond to you.

Right. I still want to make a TikTok that does this. But if Taylor Swift jumped on a table, they'd be like everyone, Taylor Swift's on a table, shut up. But if you're an unknown, you need to earn the right for people to listen to what you have to say, which doesn't come unless you already are quote unquote, social on the platforms, hence social media. It's not called post media, it's called social media for a reason.

Michelle J Raymond: And I had a friend of the show, Nancy Harhart on just before Christmas, and we were talking about the law of reciprocity, which is my least favorite word to say on a podcast. I call it, my Nan taught me what goes around comes around.

So if you [00:22:00] give, you get. So for those of you, and I think this is for me, and apologies to some of the ghostwriters out there, but this is where I think ghostwriting falls down on a social platform. And it's not because it's not well written. It's because the person that's outsourced themselves and the ghostwriter captures their content in a post and it goes out, but the person's not doing the work to nurture those relationships.

Then that's where it's okay, so you posted, okay. And what happened? Oh, nothing happened. What new business did you get? Nothing. Did you have any leads? Did you have any conversations? No. And that's not on the ghostwriter. That's on the person that thought, Oh, I can just pay someone else to be myself. Yeah. That That's not going to work my friends. I would find it very difficult to believe that works effectively because how would you know what to look out for?

Even if you're an amazing ghostwriter, you don't have that industry expertise. Connections, network history, all the foresight about what's going on that you [00:23:00] can convey to somebody else, especially if you've been doing it for a long time. But I wanted to leave one question to the end.

So we're talking about top of mind and standing out. And there's two different ways that we can do this. We could be thought leaders in our industry. Or attention seekers. Now, which do you think works best to stay top of mind?

Ali Schwanke: I always lean toward thought leadership. That's usually my answer. I will say that definition varies from person to person.

Some people do see thought leadership, as a form of attention seeking in the sense that I'm going to share some really spicy industry insight and get you all like hot and bothered. And we're going to have this controversial rundown. Okay. Case in point, one of my friends this week who she owns a HubSpot agency as well.

She went on HubSpot's social media account on LinkedIn and saw what they were posting and half of their team is torn. Is this good social? Is this not good social? She posts it and says, Hey, what do you think? And it really drove this conversation around What do you think of this? And so it, it was thought leadership from the [00:24:00] sense that like, how are we treating social these days as a company?

So she treated it as a thought leadership piece. Her goal was not to drive 200 comments off the bat, but that's what it did. On the other hand, if someone was going to do that, they would just use that playbook all day long. They would just go find spicy stuff, post it, drive controversy. And in the end, they're just playing the algorithm.

I think people can see through that. So I think thought leadership, there's usually two questions I have people asking that is, what is unique to me? What do I know that nobody else knows? And then what does that make possible? Or what insights do I have that I can share that would transform someone's business?

And if you can answer that, you can typically lead with thought leadership and it will do well for you.

Michelle J Raymond: And that post even got my attention. I think you jumped in and I saw it and then off we went and I was like, yes, and I think you become a one hit wonder, a one trick wonder if you just keep doing the same thing every time and it becomes boring and then it just becomes bland, which is, we've been there and done that. What else do you know?

And I think when we show that we're a bit of an all rounder and we've got different insights into different topics, it [00:25:00] shows more of that side of things. Now I'm with you, I probably once upon a time would have went.

Oh, go and do, thought leadership stuff. Cause it sounds, much more professional and we shouldn't do attention seeking content. And then I thought about it and thought at some point we have to do things that draw attention to ourselves.

Now, at what level people are comfortable doing that? We might have people that make some crazy videos that are funny. We might have ones that are shocking, like you said, but I think there becomes a point where on LinkedIn I, I liken it to the world's biggest game of where's Waldo, as you would say. Where's Wally is what he's called in Australia, in the UK.

But you've got to do something that says, Hey I'm the guy in the beanie and the red and white stripe shirt, come and find me. Here I am. And do something and actually stand out because otherwise you do end up just blended in with everybody else. So I think there is an element of, we have to do some different things, and it doesn't always need to be crazy stuff. [00:26:00] There are people that are probably rocking in the corner.

So for me, like one of the examples I use normally, when you see my photos, I'm surrounded by bright colors. I have my big pearly white showing with big smiles and I'm always happy. And it's yay. And positive. Now, if I post a video or a photo that is an image of me, not smiling in black and white, then my audience just goes, huh? What's going on with Michelle? What's happened? Why is she upset? Because that's not what they used to.

So I think ways of interrupting patterns is something that is important. And yeah, it's funny when I do something where I'm not smiling, people are, huh? What's going on? Is Michelle okay?. But I think it's a balance. I think we have to find that balance. Is there anything else you wanted to add on to this one?

Ali Schwanke: Yeah, I love the advice of finding your own way to stand out. Because I think what I like to do is I like to use that little save button in the top of a post and I'll save the posts. And so if something strikes me as interesting, I'll [00:27:00] actually spend time to review those things once a week. And then I'll think, how could I recreate this post with the interesting insights that I have?

So people were talking about changing strategy and I am good at making TikToks and so I literally made one where I was slapping myself back and forth and saying what it feels like to work in marketing when corporate changes their strategy every 30 days.

And that anytime I post that video, I posted a couple of times. It always does well. Cause people are like, yes, that's me. And then they ask questions like, did it hurt? Was your face red? Did you have to ice your face? And, it's just kind of a fun way, but then it's linked. Like If you want to, I've got a longer article you could read about being a strategic marketing team.

But if I just post the article, no one's going to want to read that because it looks like same content everyone else posts. So the question to me is always what other content medium or way or analogy or story could I use to, talk about the very same thing?

Michelle J Raymond: I love it. And you could just do that. What you've just recommended is if you are the person that always writes text only posts, [00:28:00] try an image with it. We're not recommending here that you have to go and hire a production crew or go all crazy or do something that's not in line with your brand, but you can try different things that are reasonably cheap, easy, quick that you could just do.

And I always say, do something that scares you a little bit. Get yourself out of that comfort zone. Cause you'd be surprised what happens like this, LinkedIn live that we're recording the podcast on wouldn't have happened because Michelle of four years ago was freaked out about making a five minute video about myself that was for a course.

And that course is still sitting in the cupboard just behind me, which I have intentions of finishing this year. But, from one little action, taking one video years later, here we are. And I've been invited to speak on international stages this year. But that's the same person that, couldn't talk about themselves for five minutes, just a few years ago. So you never know where these small actions to try something different will lead you.

Ali, every time I wrap the show up, I always ask my guests for one [00:29:00] last actionable tip that we can leave our listeners with. So over to you, if we want to help our audience to go from bland to demand and stay top of mind, what's an actionable tip that you could leave them with?

Ali Schwanke: Yeah. I've got a LinkedIn 30 day posting calendar if you all want to take that and get going because it's got some things in there that will help you stay top of mind. And you can find that over at Alischwanke.Com. I'm sure you'll put that in the notes.

And yeah, my, my last tip would be just start. Stop looking for perfect, stop waiting for it to be the best, just start and you will start to build momentum, which is the best way to grow.

Michelle J Raymond: It's amazing what can happen. Just that one little action. So I'm going to echo that one. So my shout out to the listeners today is what is one action that you can take today that you didn't take yesterday that might change the future of where you're going and especially help you to grow your business.

So Ali, thank you for everything that you've dropped today. Thanks for coming on the show and uh, sharing all of your knowledge. And I will be putting all the details in the show notes so people [00:30:00] can reach out and connect with you in the different ways and platforms that you are on. So I appreciate your time.

Ali Schwanke: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Michelle J Raymond: Cheers.​