Irresistible Offers to Grow Your Business - The Power of Positioning. Guest: Angela Tsai

TRANSCRIPT

Michelle J Raymond: [00:00:00] Welcome everyone to the LinkedIn for B2B Growth Show. I'm your host, Michelle J Raymond, and this week we're talking about a way to grow your business, which I think if anyone's like me, they probably jumped over this step back in the beginning when we set out to grow our business. And that is the art and science of getting together an irresistible offer that sells.

Now I have brought in my expert on this topic. Angela, welcome to the show.

Angela Tsai: Thank you very much Michelle. Great to be here.

Michelle J Raymond: Look, we are gonna have some fun on this one 'cause I had some pretty funny experiences along the way, which I will save until we dive in. But tell me, how did you get started on LinkedIn?

What's your journey been like?

Angela Tsai: Yeah, so I I would say that I started my LinkedIn journey. I suspect not very dissimilar to probably a lot of people that are on LinkedIn and listening to this. I started off because years and years ago 15 years ago to be exact I had a look, it was 26th of September, 2008.

I heard about this social media platform for professionals. And I thought, oh wow, that's crazy 'cause I, I think I'd [00:01:00] only created my Facebook account about a year before that. And I was like, oh wow. So it's like this social media platform for professionals and you put your entire CV on this linkedIn and that was just wild, that idea to do that because I think at that time I started off my career in biotech, in pharmaceuticals and I was quite heavily involved in inspections.

Part of that process was we'd have to submit CVs so people could check that, certain people in roles, they were qualified to do their roles and that just felt like something that was so private, your entire history, your entire background, like all the jobs that you had, and I felt so privileged, to be in that process to see oh, all of these like VPs and all of these really successful people, like where did they start their careers?

And I was like, wow, that's wild. Now it's on the internet. And I remember at the time that it felt very much like I was exposing myself to even put all of that information on there. So fast track 15 years later. I think I basically stayed dormant on LinkedIn for about 12 [00:02:00] years, where I only logged on to update when I had a job change or like I got promoted and everyone would say, Hey, congratulations.

And yeah, it took me a while. Even like first two years of my business. I know Michelle you speak a lot about, this first like nervousness of putting yourself out there. So first two years of my business, I didn't post anything on LinkedIn. Yeah, but it's been a journey.

It's been a journey up until now.

Michelle J Raymond: I'm glad that you are here. I had a look. I joined LinkedIn in 2009. I downloaded my archive the other day, which I highly recommend everybody does. And my mum was my first connection. What I use for LinkedIn back in 2009 is certainly not how I'm using it today, but it was so cute to go back and go, okay, that's obviously when I didn't know what was going on the platform.

I must have just got a job and thought I was all very grown up. So fast forward and a few years back I decide that I'm gonna set up my own business and off I went, and I'm a salesperson at heart. 20 years in B2B sales. Always sold everybody else's products. [00:03:00] They were, here you go, Michelle, here's a catalogue, here's a list, off you go sell. And off I would go.

But what happened was when I started my own business, guess what? There was no products to sell. That was my job and I just remember looking at it, going, how am I gonna sell this? What am I gonna do? And so we're gonna dive into this in case somebody's listening, I know that you've got so many great tips' cause I follow your content and I'm gonna drop your LinkedIn profile into the show notes and I recommend everybody follows your content and signs up for your newsletter, cause I've just discovered that and it's brilliant.

Let's start at the beginning. Tell me what's the actual overall process if I was doing this thing with your experience, what's the overall process of building an offer that will actually sell? So that's the key point. I wanna focus on one that sells.

Angela Tsai: Yes. That really is the key word here. There's really four steps in that process. I'm gonna just jump right in. Basically the four step process is the initial clarity, so this is like making sure that you've [00:04:00] got the starting point and the foundations super, super clear.

There is the hypothesis phase, there is the validation phase, and then there is the refine and scale and launch phase. Before I go into the deeper explanation of each of those what I'll just say is when I first jumped into business very similar to what you shared before, struggling in terms of how to package your expertise and in a way that's actually going to sell.

And I would caveat that with, it wasn't even just about learning how to actually package all of that in a way that was gonna sell, but also packaging in a way that was gonna be sustainable, that I wasn't gonna burn out, that I wasn't gonna fall out of love with what I was doing. And jumping straight into consulting in that first year and realizing, hey, this actually isn't the lifestyle that I set out.

And just trying to sell anything and everything just to keep paying bills and realising that essentially I became like a one woman employee except I had no support structure around me. And that felt really hard.

Initially when people start out with building their offer, They tend to start off straight in the hypothesis phase. Oh, I'm just [00:05:00] gonna put something out there. And they tend to stay in the hypothesis phase and just keep putting stuff out there and it works, but it just takes a lot longer to get to that real, like that full that, that perfect product you know, it just ignites in the market.

So basically in terms of the way that people tend to package things, where things tend to go wrong from what we've seen in the offers is they tend to be mixing offers. They tend to be going too wide. They tend to be just like custom building everything. Like at the mercy of someone else's request, whatever you want, I shall deliver.

Michelle J Raymond: Oh, we've been there, we've all been there. Can you do this? Ah-ha. Will you just pay me for it? Yeah, I hear you.

Angela Tsai: Exactly. Exactly. So coming back to those first steps, that's why that clarity that, starting point, step is so important. And essentially what that involves is, You're getting all your ideas out. We call it the car park.

Car park is an easy way to remember it because you've got all these ideas like you're an entrepreneur for God's sake. It's for granted that you're creative. You've basically left [00:06:00] behind the corporate world because you've got just too many ideas to be contained in the walls of your job or your role.

And it's really easy to get distracted. It's really easy to get lost, and it's also really easy to just get pulled into things when you're in this place where you're like, ah, yeah, I need to make money now. That clarity phase, pulling all of those things out. Putting them in.

And I see it as you've got this map in which you are then able to strategise where your right starting point is. And a lot of people, they don't really spend that time upfront to get that map together. They think, oh, I'm just gonna jump into it.

It's a bit like one of our team members Bella. So she's our client success manager, shout out to her. She's a rock climber and when you're rock climbing, you've gotta strategize, like what's gonna be the rough path that you're going to take. You don't just say, okay, I'm gonna reach for this rock and then I'm gonna reach for this rock. Sometimes you have to improvise when you are in that moment, but it's useful to firstly know what the path is.

So when you don't have that clear map to figure out where's your starting point, it's like kind of start jumping straight in, like I said, jumping straight into the hypothesis.

[00:07:00] So hypothesis phase is the part where most people are gonna be very familiar. You've got this idea, let's get this out there, it's brilliant. Everyone's gonna love it. And then the validation phase is the part where people really I would say they, they fall down, they skip. This is the part where they start to get really discouraged because sometimes they get it right and that's brilliant.

But in a lot of cases they have a brilliant idea and it's so good. They're so excited because they've seen a problem in the market. Oh my God, everybody needs this. And they go out and it's just people don't get it. People don't get it.

Michelle J Raymond: I'm nodding here because, as Company Pages are my thing, but three years ago, I can assure you, they were nobody else's thing. But I had this really brilliant idea and I had a couple of clients and so I was going hard, but everyone else was looking at me with crazy eyes going, what is wrong with this person? Why would you bother worrying about your company page?

I was like no, that's really good. And so I ended up going down Company Page route, it was by accident. Oh, that's a whole story [00:08:00] for another day. But all of a sudden had this product, but everybody else hated it. And I got to this point where I was stuck and conflicted and my shout out's to Michelle Griffin, who thankfully told me to keep going, but I literally got to one point and I was like, Everybody else hates it.

I think I'll go eat worms. I'm gonna throw this company page stuff away. And she's no, keep going. And so I'm just laughing as you're sharing the steps that we go through,'cause I can absolutely relate and I'm sure others will too.

Angela Tsai: Yeah. And I'm really glad that you did stick to it because you had the right gut instinct that there was a gap, there was some sort of a need there. You felt it. But again, it's that validation phase in terms of, okay, so but where, like where in the market? What is the angle, what is the entry point?

And I'll talk about that in a moment the entry points because there's there's always something there and it's about connecting it with the market and a real need there.

So yeah, so after the hypothesis phase is when you know that you've got something good. This is something the market wants [00:09:00] to buy, and you know how to, push that magic button to make sure that they actually want it.

And then that's when you're ready to start refining it. Start scaling it. Looking at how do I do my marketing? How do I really start to scale the way I sell this? But most people, they skip straight from hypothesis to, let's launch and scale.

Michelle J Raymond: So are you saying fake it till you make it is not actually a good strategy? Cause that's kinda how I felt. But I don't beat myself up. I was creating everything from scratch. And I'm really proud of where I ended up. But it's certainly, if I was to go back again and reach back and talked to myself three years ago, I would wish that I had done a lot of these things, but I think you don't know what you don't know and I found my way through this.

But let's say I was doing everything the right way and I was planning this out. I've got my magical offer together. It's irresistible, it's gonna sell like hot cakes, but how do I launch the offer? Like, how do I let other people know? What's your best way that you've found?

Angela Tsai: So I [00:10:00] love this because everybody talks about launch, and I think a lot of people, they have this misconception that an offer is like the final thing you do just before you launch.

It's like you need to package stuff. I need to come up with fancy name. I need to come up with something that's like, you know, people are gonna be like, Ooh, that sounds really intriguing, that sounds really cool, and I need to come up with a landing page.

And, I need to come up with sales copy. I need to come up with collateral and, maybe hire like a graphic designer or VA someone on Upwork to help me create some cool graphics so I can launch and have like cool images and stuff to launch it.

So most people have that in mind when they think about launching and all of those do have a part, but it's a little bit like, people have this misconception that if I undergo a rebranding, that means I'm gonna create a new logo.

Those of you here that have more experience on the branding and also marketing space. There's a lot more, there's a whole iceberg that undergoes behind a branding exercise. It's not just you pay 50 pounds for someone to help you create a logo.

When it comes to launch, my view, firstly, the word [00:11:00] launch is a misconception and I see launch basically in two parts. There's two launches that you ultimately do when it comes to your offer. You've got the first part of the launch, which is all about how do I get this offer selling. So that's the first launch.

And then the second launch is once you've actually cracked that piece, it's how do I get this seen by as many people as possible, which is again, thinking of those four steps, like people tend to skip straight to that. It's just okay, I've got my idea now let's get it out there. Let's see how many people can see this as much as possible.

And those two phases, they jump in and out of the other. So every time there's something that sort of gets tweaked or there's something that changes, you might wanna launch a second part of your in original offer.

You have to go back into that first part. And it's sort of an iterative, like open process. It's not like one is defined, it's like A to B, and now you go B to C and then that's it, it's not linear.

So firstly, when it comes to launching, the first focus, I would say is to focus on how do I actually get this sold?

 I see it as a prototype. Your first prototype of how you're going to sell [00:12:00] this. And once you learn that, your entire launch strategy and process wraps around it. And I think that's where a lot of people go wrong because, I come from a marketing background, I come into this already with a bit of a marketing strategy and also product strategy cause that's also my background as well.

But a lot of business owners, they don't have that background. So they think, oh, there's a marketing coach that's gonna teach me a strategy to launch and whether it's on YouTube ads or it's like Facebook or it's LinkedIn pipeline generation, or it's like Instagram, but they haven't actually figured out what is their prototype sales process and is this going to be the right system? Is this gonna be the right strategy to launch that particular offer? So again, there's especially two launches.

But coming back to your question, which is the best way to launch my recommendation here is always to start off with a soft launch. So soft launch is what we basically, teach all of our clients when they're starting out in this process.

And a soft launch is you're not going like the big bang, [00:13:00] lots of graphics don't worry about the graphics. You're gonna end up like wasting so much money investing in all this collateral that you're going to create that you're probably going to find that, Maybe it does have some effect, but it's not going to monetise with the return on investment that you're really hoping for.

And once you actually, figure it out, you're probably gonna have to then go back and change everything again. So focus on the soft launch. Soft launch process. You're sort of like reaching out to people that you already know are warm and there's like whole process behind that as well.

And you are just like selling it to them. You're learning to sell it to them. You're learning that in that process of validation, figuring out the real angles, the real hooks, those entry points that I mentioned earlier. And then once you've actually figured that out, then you know what to wrap your entire marketing message and your collateral and your whole launch strategy behind.

So yeah that's what I would've done.

Michelle J Raymond: Oh, look it's just typical of me as my friend Michelle Griffin would always tell me, Michelle, you just [00:14:00] dive in the deep end with the sharks, and I do. And so I'm coming back and I'm listening to you about the processes and that they're quite simple and obvious when you share them.

And I'm sitting here nodding in agreement the whole way through. But my background in sales, 20 years of B2B sales, my instant thing was, Quick create something that was a product, now go and just do what I do and do what I know and just go and sell it to as many people as possible. And this whole marketing thing that existed in other businesses that I worked in a whole other team, looked after it, not my problem.

And to be honest, I didn't think they really did that much anyway. So I always apologise to the marketers I've ever worked for. That's a typical salesperson. Don't think that they did anything. So shout out to all of the marketers. I confess. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the power of what you were doing.

Okay, let's look at this. So we've gone through our four step process in the beginning. And we've now done a bit of a soft launch, bit of a test just to see what's out there in the market [00:15:00] and how we're gonna sell this thing. But tell me, I want your insider knowledge, cause you guys do this all the time and specialise in it.

What are the things I need in that offer? What are the components that will make this thing absolutely sell? Because, I know a lot of people, consultants, trainers, probably similar type business to my own that are brilliant at what they do. They have years of experience. They have something that they've put together and for the life of them, their savings are draining.

They're going backwards and they can't find the thing that makes other people wanna buy their services. So what advice can you give these people? What are the components that will actually change it from something that won't sell to something that will?

Angela Tsai: Yeah, it's such a common problem and It's heartbreaking when it happens because there are so many people out there that are selling things when they might not necessarily have, as in depth and I'm not saying it's bad.

There are [00:16:00] bad offers out there for sure. There are definitely those that aren't actually really helping people to get to that final result.

But there are so many experts that are so good at what they do and this is really where like we see so much of it in our work. Most of our people that we work with, they've been doing what they do for like minimum of 10 years, if not 20, 30 years.

And it's heartbreaking when they go through this process and they're like, oh my God, I can't even give it away for free. They can't figure it out.

So there's really four components of that. So four steps and four components. Firstly, you gotta know the outcome. And that's where a lot of people fall down because they focus on selling expertise.

And I know we're gonna talk about that later on as well. They focus on selling knowledge. They focus on selling their experience and expertise and so on. And they don't actually know how to distinguish and separate that from the actual outcome.

But then once people know the outcome, they then actually struggle with connecting it with the micro result. So the micro result ultimately is what is going to make people buy. Because a lot of us, [00:17:00] we know so much about what we know and we know exactly where we need to take people.

We focus on the big transformation. It's oh my God, I need to get you to Oz, like Oz at the end of the yellow brick road but it just feels so far away. It's something that most of your clients, they're just not there. They're not living and breathing and so passionate about this thing that you do every single day that they're thinking about it.

And yes, they do want it, but it's like a dream. It's far away. They're not able to connect it. They don't even have enough belief in themselves yet that they're even able to attain that for themselves. So even if they hire you, you're the best expert but for them it's oh yeah, you know what? I'll do that in the next five years. First, I'm gonna focus on solving whatever I need to solve today.

So that's what I'm talking about with the micro result. Whatever they need to solve today is essentially that. And so that's basically the second component. You gotta know the outcome, but you also gotta wrap that around their micro result, the thing that they're trying to solve today.

And there's four entry portals to that. So the four entry portals they're typically going to be [00:18:00] wrapped around number one or first step. So again, You gotta take the first step on the yellow brick road in order to reach Oz.

It's a bandaid solution. It's something that they think they need because, they're just, they've got a wound and it hurts and they just need to like, put a bandaid on it now.

 It's something that they really don't wanna do, that you can probably take off their hands. Or it's probably going to be a symptom. Which is a little bit similar to bandaid solutions. So it's a symptom of something that they're feeling, a problem that they think they're having, and it's in the way of them actually seeing the big thing that they need to solve at the end.

And you know that so well. But it's really hard for us as experts to be able to step back into their shoes and see the world and their problem from their perspective. So that's the second one. The micro result.

You've gotta have a clear start and finish point. So defined journey A to B. I teach that in some of my talks in terms of how to create that. And also you've gotta make sure that you are able to present the value of this in the right way. And that's wrapped around a lot of things. There's the pricing, there is, you know, who you are. Do you actually ultimately know what is the [00:19:00] value that you give and also the language that you're using to connect it to them.

So those would be the four components of an offer that's gonna sell.

Michelle J Raymond: My brain was thinking of examples of either people cramming so much in to justify a price or make themselves feel like they justify their position as the person that's offering the training. And just the way that we try and either undersell ourselves and our experience or jam so much in that it's overwhelming for the other person.

And I've been through a bit of a journey with that myself. When I first started out in the business, I thought the more that I gave people in the training, the more helpful it would be because my theory was, I've been selling on LinkedIn for nine years.

I can save you nine years of trial and error. And give it to you in two and a half, and I'm just gonna put it all in and away you go. And all that people did was go, whoa, wow that's a lot. And so I've paired back things and given people a step-by-step [00:20:00] process. My LinkedIn for B2B Growth is literally a step-by-step game plan.

But in the beginning, It was, the more I could tell you, the more important I was, the more you would pay. And it was overwhelming and I think we forget when we're experts, what it's like to be back at the beginning. They don't wanna be experts. They just want that problem, that bandaid problem to go away.

Angela Tsai: Yeah.

Michelle J Raymond: It's been an interesting journey for me on that one.

Angela Tsai: That's right.

Michelle J Raymond: And it's been about me, not about them. It's not that less cause there's a ton of value, but I don't basically recite things like the LinkedIn help desk. I took it back and said, look, this is how it can support you and your goals.

And, got into their shoes. I think that's what I'm hearing from you through all of the steps and the components, we have to get in the other side into their shoes and start looking at the world from the other side.

Now you did briefly mention about selling outcomes versus expertise.

Tell us about that quickly, because I'm [00:21:00] gonna sit back and be very quiet and listen very attentively on this piece because I think I'm guilty as charged as someone that's still a little bit on that expertise fence and not the outcomes. So help me out.

Angela Tsai: Yeah. I love what you were sharing earlier.

It's such a common thing that we wanna throw everything in because we're just so passionate. We're so excited about helping the person in front of us that we wanna give them everything. Like we don't wanna hold back. You've got access to me, I've got all this stuff, I've got all these tools, and I can help you.

But it's overwhelming, like you said. They can't process, they can't digest it. When it comes to selling your outcomes versus expertise, the best way I can probably really explain it is if you think about your cooking or baking. So outcomes is your cake, right?

Outcomes is the cake, and your expertise is all of the raw ingredients, but all of the raw ingredients that you can make to be able to make any cake. So you can make your chocolate mud cake. You can make your dark forest cake, you can make your red velvet cake, you can make your vanilla cake, all of that stuff.

But if you chuck [00:22:00] all of the ingredients in, it's gonna be like, probably not very nice tasting cake, so it's about separating that. So you've got the outcome, and then you've got the raw ingredients. And as experts, we need to learn to hold back. And that comes back to being able to distill, that outcome, that micro result, not overwhelming them.

And the crazy thing is going through this journey ourselves in our business, like we've gone through so many iterations to get to where we are today. And we started off with literally like throwing everything in the kitchen sink. And we weren't profitable as a business. And no wonder because like we were like we were hiring people because we had so much to do for the clients that we couldn't do it just with us.

We had to hire extra hands, but then we had to then pay our staff and we weren't able to justify raising the prices because it was just already getting so expensive and it still wasn't profitable. And that was ultimately happening. And what was really frustrating is we weren't getting as strong testimonials as we are right now because our clients were so overwhelmed that they didn't know what they [00:23:00] were giving testimonials or what they were getting or what they were buying.

 By the end of the whole process, they've forgotten, that the reason they came to us in the first place. So the more we stripped out and the more we distilled and the more we focused, it actually got better results for clients. It was more consistent. And yeah, it just made it a lot clearer for clients also to advocate and talk about us because they knew what people that would come to us would be getting.

Michelle J Raymond: So much easier. And I love the idea and we sit here and I'm again nodding my head going, absolutely that would work. But the reality is when I try and apply it to my own products, my own business, there's that tug of war again that's going between.

I wanna shove everything and the kitchen sink in, so that you think I'm giving you value so you'll pay me what I think I'm worth. And so all the emotional stuff gets tied in, and it's my emotional stuff. And again, I've taken my focus off. What's going on for the person that I wanna work with.

And I think, again, we keep coming back to that, what's in it for them? What's in it for them?[00:24:00] And it's just really important. But one of the things I saw in one of your posts when I was doing my research, as I've been poking around in your profiling content, but one of the points that you made somewhere in there was where people go wrong and why they're not actually selling their offers is cause sometimes they're actually marketing them, not selling them.

Can you tell a little piece about that? Because I think it's such an important distinction that Yeah, there's a difference between those two things.

Angela Tsai: Yeah, I think a lot of experts, they come from large organisations where sales and marketing are clear and very distinct functional pillars. But the thing is, when you're starting out in business and you're trying to create your offer, like it's almost everything is so tightly wound around each other.

Like you can't really distinguish that, the sales, the product, the marketing, like it's all like a very tightly wound ball and it has to be treated as such.

The initial focus when you're starting out in business is really about making sure that you can monetise, because if you're not monetising what you do, like honestly, you have[00:25:00] a hobby. And it could be a very admirable hobby because you're trying to help people and you are, you've got an altruistic vision behind it, but it isn't a business.

Your first goal of the business is to learn how to monetise what you do. And so that's why it is so important when people go into this process again, thinking firstly about that initial prototype, not the prototype of your product.

So I wanna make that clear distinction because you do need that as well, your product, your offer, but your prototype of how you're going to monetise this thing, how you're gonna sell it.

And my business partner who you also know quite well. She's an amazing salesperson. She's been doing sales for the last, 18 years. And basically, it was like a moment for me as a marketer. I realised I was going into this all wrong.

I called her up one day. I was like, oh my God, Christina been going around this all wrong. It's all about the sales. It's not about the marketing. It's all about how to sell this offer. So actually, Michelle, what you were saying earlier around your experience oh, my sales background, I just need to go out and sell it.

So definitely there was some[00:26:00] advantage there, I would say, in terms of the way that you approached it. But it's clicked for me. Like I had all of the toolkit, I had everything in terms of strategy, launch, campaign experience, like all these different things I'd learned from different courses and stuff that I had done.

But ultimately I needed to first figure out how to actually sell this offer before I was able to wrap, the marketing strategy around it, to enhance that.

So that, that is really the the main difference around selling and marketing offers. But like I said in the beginning, when you're starting out, you know, it's really like, you gotta see it as, a combined thing. It's almost inseparable.

Michelle J Raymond: Definitely. Now, my advice to people out there from a LinkedIn social selling perspective is doing a post about your product isn't necessarily, that's not selling your product. The other thing that I would say is for those of you who don't even post about your products and what you do, it's time to start adding that into the mix.

Whoever put it out there that you shouldn't be selling on LinkedIn or in some way, shape, or form, it's wrong to do that. Don't be [00:27:00] salesy. This is why you're not selling your offer, because no one knows what you do. You are not telling them, you are not asking them. You're not even giving them a chance.

So you're sharing all this value, and then that's where you leave it and you don't connect the dots. So I love that you've found the balance. I've also had to find the balance and admit some defeat. As I said on the marketing side of things, I think. You need a good balance of both and to understand both.

And if you don't, then please reach out to Angela and her business partner Christina, who will be back from maternity leave at some point, cause they're both brilliant together because they come at things from a sales and a marketing side and just the blend is brilliant.

I'll certainly be making sure that people can reach out to you to get more in depth detail around everything that we've covered, because I know you could just talk for hours and hours, and I've heard some of your talks on just smaller points out of what we've covered today, but I have one final request.

Somebody that's been listening in here today, what is one actionable tip that you [00:28:00] think you can give them?

If an offer's not selling, what do you think is something that they could take in action today that might help change that?

Angela Tsai: Yeah, my actionable tip is that, Remember that your clients are already telling you the answers. People that you have helped, people that you have worked with.

If you haven't already make sure that you are obviously with permission, recording conversations that you have, so the sales conversations that you have, go back and mine those calls, go back and mine those calls because the answer is there.

 God knows I spent like hundreds of hours mining our calls, but also mining client's calls. And I'm just like sitting there tinkering the answer is here. The answer is here. But go back and re-listen to that because that is like a goldmine of information. And sometimes you need to read between the lines.

But sometimes what is more often happening is that we are so blinded by our knowledge of the solution that they need, that we're not actually listening to what they're telling us that they need. What is the outcome they're looking for?

It's like you said, Michelle, very often it's coming from a good [00:29:00] place. It's coming from because we wanna help them, we really wanna get them to where they need to go, but we're actually losing sight of the thing that they're facing and they really want your help with. I've got so many examples of that. Just even, yesterday we were going through that with someone that we're working with.

I think, it's really about just going back, mining those calls and listening out for the outcome that they're telling you that they need, and comparing it with the outcome that you are thinking you're selling in your marketing, in the things that you're saying, and see if there's a disconnect there.

Michelle J Raymond: Oh my God. That is brilliant. And I'm gonna go back and listen to this and I'm gonna put that one in the show notes and also in the clips to promote this episode because I think that's brilliant. I think there is such a crossover between what I want them to get versus what they want out of the sessions.

With me and my business. And if I can just tweak that, I'm sure that my conversion rates will go from what they are, which is quite high and I'm happy with them. But just to get that next 10%, next 20% of [00:30:00] additional revenue that comes in.

This has been absolutely brilliant as I knew it would be, and I'm gonna encourage everybody to reach out and connect with you, angela.

As I said, your contact details will be in the show notes so that anybody can come and find you on LinkedIn.

Thank you for everything that you've shared today, I have got my brain running a million miles an hour right now going, Michelle, go and think about this. How else can I put together my offers that will really speak to those who I wanna help grow their business?

And so I appreciate you sharing your knowledge so generously today.

Angela Tsai: Yep, you're welcome.

Michelle J Raymond: It has been fabulous. And everybody else, I will catch you on the next episode. Cheers.