When it comes to event marketing, let's face it the content is pretty boring at best. The obligatory photo of the team in front of a shiny, expensive stand. Add in a few action shots to make sure it looks like you had people attend to justify the cost. Multiply this content by the number of stands, and it all looks exactly the same. Attendees do an obligatory one with the sign at the front to prove they were there. But what if it could be different?
Laura Erdem joins the show and shares her ideas on how we can get your event content noticed without big budgets that break the bank.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:29 Discussing Laura's Profile and Background
01:12 Addressing the Problem of Boring Event Content
03:38 The Importance of Planning for Event Content
08:33 The Role of Creativity in Event Content
08:43 The Power of Video Content at Events
24:39 The Impact of Creative Content on Revenue
28:24 Final Thoughts and Advice
Connect with Laura Erdem on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lerdem/
ABOUT MICHELLE J RAYMOND
Michelle J Raymond is an international LinkedIn B2B Growth Coach. To continue the conversation, connect with Michelle on LinkedIn and let her know you are part of the community of podcast listeners.
Connect with Michelle J Raymond on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellejraymond/
B2B Growth Co offers LinkedIn Training for teams to build personal and business brands and a LinkedIn Profile Recharge service for Founders/CEOs.
Book a free intro call to learn more - https://calendly.com/michelle-j-raymond/book-an-intro-call-15mins
LinkedIn for B2B Growth Podcast is a fully accessible podcast. Audio, Video, Transcript and guest details are available on our podcast website - https://linkedinforb2bgrowthpodcast.com/
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#eventmarketing #contentmarketing #socialselling
Michelle J Raymond: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to LinkedIn for B2B Growth Show I'm your host, Michelle J Raymond, and I am joined by someone that I can't believe it's taken us this long to actually have a conversation. I needed to invite you onto the show to make it happen. Laura Erdem, welcome to the show.
Laura Erdem: Michelle, it's such a pleasure to meet you. It's amazing. And we chatted for 15 minutes before the show and it was like, Oh, we have to start now, so we're going to just continue it.
Michelle J Raymond: We are absolutely going to dive into things. And for all of our marketing friends that are listening, I need to read you out Laura's profile headline, part of it. 'Sales leader with a crush on marketing.'
I would say I come from pretty similar backgrounds. B2B sales is where my heart is. And I read it on somebody else's About Section one day, and I wanted to steal it, but it said 'sales born and marketing bred', and I was like, yes, that's me. So marketers, I want you to listen in today because normally you'll hear Laura [00:01:00] doing lots and lots of talks about attribution, but we're not going to be doing that today because there's something else that I think is more important.
Now, don't tell your bosses this Laura, but I think it's more important. I'm going to talk about boring event content and how can we stop it? And you were the person that I was like yes, you are nailing this. So thank you for uh, you know, coming on this journey with me today, but what do you see is the biggest problem around content and events when you're scrolling on LinkedIn?
Laura Erdem: Yeah. This is one of my favorite topics and we will touch a little bit upon attribution because the events go back to that topic as well. But one of the things that I see most of the time are pictures of people standing in front of their booth. We are at an event. Whoo. So what?
But the thing is, I think what happens is people put[00:02:00] so much energy into preparing to the event, making the booth perfect, having the right giveaways, having the right people, the right conversation starters, all that stuff that come into events. And then they wait for the people to come to the booth to talk with them and your energy is out. This is where your focus is.
This is our event. This is what we do. And the only thing that people feel like, okay. I can still do it is that picture and then post it on LinkedIn because, Oh, we actually paid this and all of us flew in here. It's expensive. Let's tell more people we're here. I think that's what happens and it's very normal because you need energy for both the event and the social stuff as well.
Michelle J Raymond: I've been that person in those photos. I've spent a lot of my career at trade shows, standing at those booths, putting the smile on. And you're right, there's a lot of effort that goes into the design of the booth. There's a lot of costs that goes into having the best booth possible. And as you mentioned, [00:03:00] flying everybody in, all the accommodation.
And I feel like when you actually arrive, it's we're done, hand it over. It's not our problem anymore. And everybody's so sick of talking about it and I see it all the time. So let's just say an event costs a business $50,000 and I'm being very probably cheap. There's probably some marketers out there that are rocking in a corner saying we wish it was only that.
But when I looked at it and I thought about it, there is so much more that we can squeeze out of these events by just having a content plan that is more than that obligatory photo out the front. So let's talk about when do you actually start the planning process for content at the event? And should this process belong to the sales team, the marketing team, or does everyone need to be involved?
Laura Erdem: Yeah, both. So both need to be involved. When do we start? To begin with, and That's where I will start talking a little bit [00:04:00] about the attribution piece. When we in the sales team started to speak about, Oh, let's maybe do some events because we're quite good at social and Dream Data. And we're quite good at our ads.
Basically that's what we do attribute and try to figure out what works, but we don't go to events. Should we be there where our buyers are? And our CMO said, it's expensive and I'm not able to measure the ROI. Maybe not. Okay, Laura, you can go. You go and you figure this out and then you come back and then let's figure out if we are going to do more of this.
At that time, when I started to go to a couple of those events alone to start with, I started to plan way too late because it was more or less a trial and error, what are we going to do? But later on, so these are the learnings that I figured out once we started to send people away.
So we start planning, at least a month ahead, if you don't have a booth. If you have a booth, you will have to start planning around more or less half a year before, because you will have to have the [00:05:00] funds, you will have to know what it is that you have to have prepared. And then when that time comes, then the month is left till your conference, then you can start planning your content and everything else when the rest of the big pieces are falling in. We have never had a booth at Dream Data so far, so I can only talk of the piece that what comes into the preparation of content going to an event.
So a month before you start talking about what is this event about and what type of people are going to be there. You've tried to figure out what type of people on who might be there as well. So now we're in sales and we have to book meetings. And we all tried to do the awkward, Hey, you're going to this, should we book some time? And nobody wants to book some time because you don't know what time you have when you come to an event. And some people would say yes. They would say yes easier if they have seen you on LinkedIn.
So I don't have a big trouble booking meetings. But other people who don't have that much of a LinkedIn presence, then it's tougher and [00:06:00] it usually is a lot of work. But it's not work wasted because if you start finding out who are going to be there, you will start figuring out, am I able to book meetings with them?
No. Okay. What sessions those people are going to be in. So I can be there as well and meet those people as well. So you start building your list and you will understand who are there and you will recognize those people when they're there, to start the conversations.
Okay. Away with the sales. A month ahead, start planning the content. And we can talk about what happens right before the event and when the event hits as well.
Michelle J Raymond: And that's the thing, the more that you plan this and I'm on record, I don't know how many times to say I am not a planner by nature. It's not something that comes natural to me. I'm a typical kind of probably salesperson fly by the seat of my pants.
What do I feel like today? Let's go. Just want to keep moving. Just want to keep doing stuff. Don't want to stop for a minute and just work it out. But as time's gone on and I have my own business, I realized the value of planning. And I think the thing that you've just [00:07:00] mentioned there is the intent behind the kind of content that you're creating and who you're creating it for.
And it goes beyond just the photo of the booth. And there's always one where someone takes a selfie at the sign out the front to say, you're at the expo. It's almost like a tick. Yes. I'm really at the trade event, you know, so you can prove to everybody that you were there. And when you think about it, the point that you raised is everybody's trying to get appointments with exactly the same people.
Like it's on for young and old. Whoever's the toughest and the strongest with their relationships, they're the ones that are going to get the lion's share of the actual meetings with people. And at the same time, those same people are trying to get as much as they can out of having a wander around.
And I don't know about you, Laura, but in my experience as a B2B sales rep, I'm a typical extrovert and most of the people that have been in the buying space are often [00:08:00] introverted. And so while we as salespeople are like sharks, chasing prey, trying to lure them into our booth, these introverts stand five meters away, squint at your sign to try and see what you sell or what you do. And there's no such thing as no one's coming for the cheap mint sitting on top of the desk.
That is not working for people, but you've done some creative things, which is why I wanted to get you on the show, because this is so easily solved, for not big budgets. Nothing we're going to talk about today, I don't think really costs a huge amount of money, but it does take creativity, which is what I think you're just brilliant at.
So can you share some of the creative ideas that you've tried at events that make your content so memorable?
Laura Erdem: I do a lot of video on LinkedIn in general. And it seems like people do relate to people who do [00:09:00] video. So that's the first thing that when it's easier to reach out to people, if you are on video or at least with pictures, so they know who you are or do podcasts, if you can.
And when I reach out to people with an idea, it's not too difficult to get a yes to go on a video. What you can learn from this is start creating content with people at events.
And one of my most memorable parts was when we were at Ascent in New York. I tried to book meetings, but it was tough. And I was thinking, okay, so we're in New York for three days and it's packed and everybody's at the event and trying to speak with the same people.
And people know me for biking and filming, let me do a stunt. And I literally tried to figure out, can we bike and film in New York, but it seems to be dangerous. And then I went into and Googled 'biking in New York', and I got the pedicab ad in front of me. So what, this is the safest thing ever.
It's close to the area where we're going to have the event. We can sit at the back. We can selfie [00:10:00] style film stuff and people will, if they've not been in New York, will see Central Park. We're going to have a chat that is going to be on video and the chat is possibly is going to be, the filmed one is going to be like maybe 10 or 15 minutes, but the rest I've got for talking.
So I've got your attention for half an hour. Plus when you leave the pedicab, you're delighted because you had a tour. It's like, Oh, right. we're doing this. And the jokes are coming ahead. And so people get so much more open for that.
Michelle J Raymond: And you've created a memory for them that is going to be there forever, I would say. Not just stuck at a booth, 10 minutes of fame, then someone walks off and moves into the next booth. And then they have their undivided attention and you've lost it. But I feel like when I saw those videos and pictures and things of you in the pedicabs going around New York, and I was like, you absolutely have their undivided attention, which was [00:11:00] just brilliant.
But the thing that I loved about the content that you put out is it's not polished. It's not perfect. I think it's just that humans being humans, having conversations, which, you know, if we can bring that to some of this content, I think that'll be a huge win because we're so busy, I think, as marketers to try and make everything perfect before it gets out in the universe.
And I think what we can learn from your content is I think we can park perfect and just embrace being humans. Is there anything you'd like to add to that?
Laura Erdem: Absolutely. So it goes back to the part where you spoke that it does not have to be costly. Creating content on video is really cheap. If you want to have it perfect, then it's not cheap, but your eyes, when you're watching your feed on LinkedIn, stop at the content that is not perfect.
If it is polished, if it is content, like you've got subtitles and all that kind of stuff. [00:12:00] I scroll really fast through it because I smell advertisement. And when we have that conversation in a pedicab and it's half polished to have a little bit of a laugh and the sound is almost good, but it has subtitles, you stop for it because it's different.
Like I have one guy we were supposed to meet in the same conference. I said but Scott, should we go for a walk on the street and film this? Yeah. So we literally walked on the street. I filmed half of the conversation. The other half was just walking back to the Times Square, where we just had a chat.
And I shipped it, more or less on the same day after just cutting some of the pieces out. Not costly, it's easy, and people stop to listen to this because it's fun. You're there, you feel like you're in the conversation.
Michelle J Raymond: I think that's how people describe it as well. Maybe you were both in the pedicab sitting side by side. And it feels like you're the person that's also there, maybe sitting in the front seat, listening to what's going on behind you and you're included in part of [00:13:00] it, but you don't have to actively participate.
So you can just kind of listen to the cool stuff that's going on. Because if you imagine with all the lights and sounds and things that are going on inside the events, taking people away from that, I think is the only way that you can really get genuine attention.
Do you have a list, like you said, of people that are targets for creating this kind of content for you? Are they like dream customers that you want to work with? Are they just friends that you've met through LinkedIn? What's your process for choosing who you want to create content with?
Laura Erdem: Yeah. So as a salesperson, I first of all, make a list and figure out who are the people that I would like to invite and would like to have conversations with. And that is for sales. B2B SaaS marketers, they're very difficult to get to talk with because they are so spoiled with all the content going on and so on. And if I'm not able to fill my agenda with all of those people, I definitely want to meet friends that I know from LinkedIn. They get on as well.
The good thing about it, about [00:14:00] filming videos with people that others recognize, and that's exactly what you're doing over here, Michelle, is that you become a part of their audience as well.
People recognize their face and their audience usually is the same audience as you work with. So your audience is amplified with the people that are known on LinkedIn and are your friends, and you have a nice conversation as well.
And in addition to that, I always try to figure out if our customers are going to be there as well. If we've got any customers, I definitely want to take them on a ride.
Michelle J Raymond: I love it. Now, there's some things that, as you said earlier on, that you've experimented with to get to this point. Was there anything you tried that just crashed and burned and you were like, no, not doing that again? Or has it all just been fun and in that spirit? You live and learn.
Laura Erdem: Yeah. So to begin with, when I first came to SaaSTR, I did TikToks. TikTok talks that I posted on LinkedIn afterwards. Not very [00:15:00] popular. Or at least it was me talking to the camera, walking and doing some stuff. It's like, okay, ditch TikTok. You're not a TikToker.
So I continued doing the same videos for LinkedIn. It worked because the the way of filming and talking with your actual audience is much better. The quality is better. So TikToks didn't work for me out. So we did running events and I was thinking, can I do some content while running?
Like even filming people running while you're running yourself is not very of a good quality. So no, we ditched that as well. So for running events, we only do the picture of, Oh, look at us. We are in our running shoes in front of whatever monument and we're going to run. You don't know if we did, but we have the clothes on.
Michelle J Raymond: I might do a few posts like that myself. Like here's me pretending to run with Laura. But I do remember, and our circles are different, even though you and I cross over, but I know for a fact that there was someone that loves your [00:16:00] content so much, and I don't remember his name, but I thought it was hilarious that he got on a bike and started filming because I think you were coming on his podcast or going to have a chat or something.
And he was like copying what you did to invite you on. And I knew straight away that it was about you. I knew straight away, I just laughed and it has stuck with me. And whilst I don't remember his name exactly, I just thought it was hilarious. So I see how what's happened is you try things. And then I love that people are bringing that back your way.
And it was just so much more fun than, like we said, the traditional booth photo. Do you know that if you know the person's name that I'm talking about, please shout them out. I just remember it made me laugh a lot.
Laura Erdem: Yeah, I'll find the name. And the podcast is going to come out, the one that we jumped on together with him. Yeah. I'll get you the name a little later, while we're chatting about this. But this is hilarious and the nice thing about it is that people remember you for doing that thing, but you don't have to try to think of [00:17:00] very creative stuff or, I don't know, start filming the turned around camera, whatever that is.
You don't have to, as long as you start creating your content from an event, you will suddenly start to figure out what is your vibe. How are you confident in doing this and how far are you ready to push that bar? Do you want to film at the event where everybody's around? Do you want to film somewhere else?
Do you want to do interviews with people? Whatever feels comfortable that will drive your energy to do more of that because events are heavy. Events are full of stuff. You don't have the time.
Okay. At this one, I want to share a trick that I actually do. So while you're at events, you're very busy and you have zero time to think about, Oh, how do I write this LinkedIn post now? And now it has to be, have a hook and so on. You don't have the time for this. What I do is if I have a moment, I would post it instantly, but I create content, [00:18:00] which means that it's not shift content, but stuff that ideas that I've got in my head that I could post about. Pictures, videos, and stuff like that.
I go back to my hotel in the evening, that's where I schedule my content for tomorrow. I can't schedule my content so I don't have to think about it while I'm at it. And then only once in a while you can check in and see who has commented. If you want to comment back on this, that doesn't require as much energy as creating the actual post or cutting the video or something like that.
So make sure while you're at events, don't stay way too late at the dinners and go back to your hotel and do a little bit of content as well.
Michelle J Raymond: Always seems like a good idea to go to those dinners and never ends up well. And I always find when I come home from events I'm drained, so I can only imagine how introverts feel after a few days of doing these things.
For them, they must just go home and, lock themselves away never to come back out again. But I just like to, think about these things and go, look, it doesn't have to be the [00:19:00] same as everybody else. It is so easy to make small changes that will make you stand out like you've just said. And I mentioned it at the start of the show about people wondering about, do I have the budget to be creative?
What kind of tech are you using when you're doing this stuff? Is it literally just an iPhone and a microphone or do you go a little bit more? Because there's so much you can do these days with a phone, but do you include anything else in this process?
Laura Erdem: No, it's really cheap. So to begin with, it was just the phone and the selfie style video filming with your AirPods in.
And then I switched into having a little bit of a better mic, but still a very cheap mic to, to have it close to me because then you don't catch the wind. And what helps to have two mics where you can film the other person as well. Perfect. Works perfect. Doesn't have to be expensive. Then I bought a selfie stick that could also be helpful to film from a little bit further away. And then I use CapCut to cut the videos. The free version.
Michelle J Raymond: And [00:20:00] that, is we're talking all up besides the phone, not that much as far as budget goes. It is literally, I think what you do really well is just. It's kind of ironic to say that you create great content about the events, not at the event. It's normally in and around it, but not necessarily at it, but it's with the people that are at it.
And that's what people are more interested in is, who did you see? What did you talk about? What did I miss out on? What are the conversations that I missed out on? Because you know, I get a serious case of FOMO, especially when there's some of these cool events, which I wish I could go to in the U S.
I'm very much looking forward to going to Social Media Marketing World in February, so I can have these conversations. And I'm listening to you because I'm thinking, I'm a bit rusty. I used to go to events all the time, but now as a business owner, it's been a while because we had COVID and then, most of my business is online. And so I'm sitting here planning, what are the cool [00:21:00] things that I could be doing that aren't just like everybody else at Social Media Marketing World, whose job it is to create content on attending that event.
And so I'm just, you know, you've planted a seed for me to start having a think about these things a few months out, because I think if I leave it to the last minute, I'm not going to come up with anything creative.
I'm going to be standing out the front with the sign doing a selfie.
Laura Erdem: But that's okay too. One of those kind of must do selfies is fine, but do something memorable as well on the side. Like one, you mentioned does creative have to be expensive?
Actually, it has to be cheap because it's the key part of creativity is as soon as you start limiting yourself of what you can and you can't do, then it will be so much easier just to find your niche.
So I don't have a lot of budget, no cameras and stuff. I don't do this and that what can I do cheap that people will get delighted on. Take [00:22:00] them away from the actual location, do something different. Don't have to have a helicopter or something like that.
Michelle J Raymond: And sometimes a little bit of research goes a long way. I know you looked into having a billboard in Times Square recently, which in my mind was going to costs thousands of, billions of dollars to have it. Because I love Times Square, it's one of my favorite places in the world.
But when you did the investigation, turns out it's nowhere near any of that. And so I think this is where that planning piece comes into things and the research that if you have those brainstorming ideas up front, you can go and look into different ideas and see, maybe it's not quite as expensive as what you think it is.
Is there anything else that surprised you along those lines?
Laura Erdem: Well, Times Square billboard, it was a very creative process of just everybody. We were having lunch and somebody said, Oh, the event is in Times Square. How about a billboard? I said, how about, no, it's very expensive. But then I go down and just sit down on my computer. Wait, what does it cost?[00:23:00] And then I see that it costs, not that much. Okay. Dear CEO, what do we do?
And if I just did a billboard, nice. Very boring. Or if it was a selfie in front of the billboard, Oh, I've got a billboard. Nice. Everybody forgot it tomorrow. But remember to spin your content again and again. If you did something that stood out even for yourself, it's like, Oh, people like this.
Spin it again and again. The reason people will remember you for that is because you constantly speak about it. I was at, what is it now this year, maybe three events. Everybody's saying, Oh, Laura, you're always at events. No. Content is. I have been at three events.
Michelle J Raymond: That is such an important point. And you're right, it does create the perception that you're always at events. It's kind of why we're talking today because it feels like that you are. And I think that's the thing that we get so hung up on and say we post once and think everybody's seen it and it's one and done and it really isn't.
The more times that we can bring that back out. We're getting [00:24:00] new followers all the time. We've got people that the algorithm didn't show it to in the first place and it creates that story and brings it all together, which is what I love. Now, a lot of what we've been talking about with these examples you just have to see the videos and experience the photos that Laura creates.
So I'm going to make sure that her profile details are in the show notes. I recommend you go over and connect or follow. Let her know that you actually listened to the podcast and that's how you've been introduced because seeing is believing and the things that she's talking about are the things that she has literally done.
This is not just an idea that, we've plucked out just for a podcast. They are things that she has had success with. You are known as the queen of attribution. I actually just gave you that name because that is part of what you do for your everyday role, but what impact has this creative content at events have, on your revenue or revenue in general?
What can you tell us about that? Because there are some people that will still be [00:25:00] sitting there going. I'm not convinced, sure. It might be cheap to produce, but what am I getting back from it? And, you know, I know that that's the pressure that a lot of marketers are under. They'd love to be creative.
They'd love to try things, but until they have to prove it up front, the return, I know a lot of them are boxed into a corner. What would you have to say about this?
Laura Erdem: It's very difficult to measure for sure. And there are several things that are happening here.
We're fans of top of funnel creation of demand that is very difficult to measure because this is how people want to buy. You can't get marketers to fill out forms for you or scan their badges and imagine that they're going to go in on a meeting with you. But what actually works is creating that buzz that is delighting people or educating them in a way that is on their premises.
And yes, create a video. So, Okay, now you remember the billboard video, it costed us $500. And then if you add microphone and stuff like that, we were at the event anyway, so it doesn't cost extra. So [00:26:00] the billboard thing has been seen by over 500,000 people on LinkedIn. And that's pure ICP. People who are following us and probably are going to be buyers at a point.
In addition to that, that billboard video has been taken up on the stage of that event by Ron Fishkin, who is very known for marketing as well. And I think there were like two, 300 people in that audience. In addition to that, so our CMO got very happy and the happy CMO creates more happy revenue.
These are the things that you can't really measure, but you've got the top of funnel measures of what has been happening, how many eyeballs did you get. And further down the line, people mentioning like you, that they have seen this. It's important to create those opportunities for them to start seeing you as well. Some people might have seen the billboard and only later have seen that oh, we do attribution. This was funny.
Attribution company does something you can't [00:27:00] measure. So make sure to measure the top of funnel pieces, but at the same time, you can start measuring your website's visits going up. More MQL's being created. Map and figure out where have people heard about you from. And that, along with the actual data that lands on the website, will create the overall picture of what's driving revenue.
Michelle J Raymond: Let's be clear from that billboard, to this conversation, to whoever's listening, that will land all around the world. And then that will go, maybe someone else has a conversation. You just can't track all of this cool stuff that's going on, even though we know it is, and it is happening out there.
And I know that your software can help people with things like, this to actually track. But ultimately I think if we can just encourage anybody that's listening today to stop and think, how can we just in 2024, try something different. Try, you know, invest in the booth, go [00:28:00] for it. Like it's part of, how events are done, but what else could you try?
What is that thing that you've always wanted to have a go at, but you've just been, too scared, maybe held back or not wanting to, just try and fail, which I think is what you have been okay with, and I think that's the inspiring thing here is you've tried things that didn't work. You tried other things, you iterated, you got better. And that's, something that I think is really cool.
Every show, Laura, I always ask my guest, my expert guest for one last actionable tip that you could give to the listeners about how they can go from creating boring content about events on LinkedIn to really standing out.
Do you have one last piece of advice that you could share with us?
Laura Erdem: Don't be afraid to stand out. Most of the things that hold people off, they're not really afraid of sharing or doing video. They think, what will our buyers think? Or what will my manager think that we're doing it like that? Don't be afraid to stand out because you're doing it as a [00:29:00] human for humans as well.
Your buyers will remember this. They will remember the quirky video that you have created and it will not ruin anything. Like the most important thing that I let my team go to events is You can't fail. As soon as you start creating content, talking with the right people, and you've got all the support around you, you can't fail.
You can only succeed. And when you feel that I have the possibility to succeed and I need to do more and try more stuff in order to be noticed, it will be so much easier. So just do the stuff you're on the right path.
Michelle J Raymond: I love it. And as Nancy, who was on the show last week, shared with me, she said, Michelle, people, when they come to work, have the same brains as when they're at home scrolling other social platforms, being entertained by YouTube shorts, Instagram, TikTok, you name it.
It's the same person, we don't have two separate brains, a work brain [00:30:00] and an entertainment brain. So don't be afraid to bring some of that to light. And so I think that really just pairs in well with what you've shared today.
Laura, I have loved having this conversation with you. I appreciate you coming on and you have planted seeds. So watch this space for when I'm at Social Media Marketing World in February, 2024, and who knows, I might end up in your part of the world mid next year. We'll hold that thought and just see what the universe brings. I'm putting it out there. You just never know.
I appreciate you. Thank you for being amazing. Thank you for doing things your own way and inspiring other people around the world to give things a go. Be not afraid of failing. And just try not to be so boring people. We appreciate that. On that note. Thank you, Laura, for coming on the show.
Laura Erdem: Michelle, thank you.
Michelle J Raymond: Cheers.